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Old September 18th, 2010, 11:01 AM   #321
Kampflamm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by apinamies View Post
I don't understand why Germans think that GDR was bad thing. I'm sure that East Germany was great place to life. If were German I would be proud of my country's history.
Yeah, it was so awesome that they had to build a wall to keep people from coming in.
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Old September 18th, 2010, 11:59 AM   #322
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
Yeah, it was so awesome that they had to build a wall to keep people from coming in.


You may think that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a great place to live in aswell.
Here a funny thing i readed once. Sometimes tourists from china visit NorthKorea to get a feeling how china was back 40 years ago. They see it, shock and don't stay for long in North Korea

*edit* found the text

Chinesische Touristengruppen reisen nach Nordkorea, um sich in einer anachronistischen Welt zu gruseln. "So war es bei uns während der Kulturrevolution", sagen sie, und beeilen sich, in die Lichter- und Glitzerwelt ihrer Heimat zurückzukehren.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...626966,00.html

Scientists say Kim Jong-il has a secret. During night North Korea disappears. They don't know how the loved leader do that!


Last edited by Dr.Mabuse; September 18th, 2010 at 12:11 PM.
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Old September 18th, 2010, 11:40 PM   #323
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But he's not precise enough. Barely noticeable spot of light reflects out of Pyongyang.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 05:57 PM   #324
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great comment on erasing the traces of an unwanted history
It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 06:00 PM   #325
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I don't understand why Germans think that GDR was bad thing. I'm sure that East Germany was great place to life. If were German I would be proud of my country's history.
Use your head a little before writing. If the DDR was such a great thing, why did they need to build a fücken great big wall to keep the people in like prisoners, guard that wall, and shoot anyone who tries to escape.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 06:24 PM   #326
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It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.
And because it was full of asbestos.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 09:31 PM   #327
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Quote:
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It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.
This transcends politics. I'm quite left-leaning and I won't miss this concrete block in the slightest.
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Old September 20th, 2010, 01:19 PM   #328
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Quote:
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It's quite typical of the left to politicize this so much. The People's palace wasn't destroyed because of it's history, but because it's ugly. It's as simple as that.
It seems you're the one politizing my statement. I have the same opinion about Zeppelinfeld in Nürenberg (or Prora at Insel Rügen, Palacul Populi in Bucharest, Linnahalle in Talinn) - these are traces, partly scars of history. Of course, when two states become one, many buildings become obsolete (there's a left-over east-german media campus in Berlin which has been unuccupied for 20 years now and is currently only housing Club Rechenzentrum). But I think - architecturally speaking - they have missed an opportunity to make a monument on the unity of Germany - instead of making a statement of assimilation. And just: to make architecture with great meaning. Now it's tabula rasa all over again.

The same discussion can be had about the Plattenbausiedlungen - this is 60 years of history, generations grew up in it, these are very meaningful places to very many people. There's nothing as changeable as the meaning of places and of architecture - and history taught us it's not always a good plan to follow fashion by bulldozer (there's a lot of nostalgia about our old cities - but we forgot they were considered a shithole and just got better). It's better to adapt than to rebuild.
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Old September 20th, 2010, 11:00 PM   #329
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Use your head a little before writing. If the DDR was such a great thing, why did they need to build a fücken great big wall to keep the people in like prisoners, guard that wall, and shoot anyone who tries to escape.
And since the wall came down more than 2 million people left the region. Obviously it's not much better now.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 05:21 AM   #330
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It seems you're the one politizing my statement. I have the same opinion about Zeppelinfeld in Nürenberg (or Prora at Insel Rügen, Palacul Populi in Bucharest, Linnahalle in Talinn) - these are traces, partly scars of history. Of course, when two states become one, many buildings become obsolete (there's a left-over east-german media campus in Berlin which has been unuccupied for 20 years now and is currently only housing Club Rechenzentrum). But I think - architecturally speaking - they have missed an opportunity to make a monument on the unity of Germany - instead of making a statement of assimilation. And just: to make architecture with great meaning. Now it's tabula rasa all over again.

The same discussion can be had about the Plattenbausiedlungen - this is 60 years of history, generations grew up in it, these are very meaningful places to very many people. There's nothing as changeable as the meaning of places and of architecture - and history taught us it's not always a good plan to follow fashion by bulldozer (there's a lot of nostalgia about our old cities - but we forgot they were considered a shithole and just got better). It's better to adapt than to rebuild.
I couldn't care less if something is meaningful or not to some small minority group. If it's ugly, it goes. This building was ugly, and it's gone. No politics from my side.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 05:29 AM   #331
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And since the wall came down more than 2 million people left the region. Obviously it's not much better now.
Really, is this your own distorted version of history?

At 1989 just before the wall came down, the population of East Berlin was 1,279,212 and West Berlin was 2,130,525. Now, together this makes 3,409,737

The current population estimate is 3,442,194 which, at least according to maths suggests an increase. Where on earth do you get your "more than two million" from?

As for your "Not much better now" comment, then you must think it a much better life to be shot for trying to cross a city, or imprisoned for thinking wrong thoughts. Maybe you don't really get it, but the DDR government executed people who tried to cross the city. And it was so bad in the East, that people would rather risk execution for them and their own families to get out.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 09:53 AM   #332
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Really, is this your own distorted version of history?

At 1989 just before the wall came down, the population of East Berlin was 1,279,212 and West Berlin was 2,130,525. Now, together this makes 3,409,737

The current population estimate is 3,442,194 which, at least according to maths suggests an increase. Where on earth do you get your "more than two million" from?

As for your "Not much better now" comment, then you must think it a much better life to be shot for trying to cross a city, or imprisoned for thinking wrong thoughts. Maybe you don't really get it, but the DDR government executed people who tried to cross the city. And it was so bad in the East, that people would rather risk execution for them and their own families to get out.

Ahm, maybe you don't know this, but the wall didn't just seperate East and West Berlin but also East and West Germany. The wall in Berlin wasn't the onlys wall errected by the Commies. And when I replied to your post you mentioned the GDR and not only Berlin.
But, you know, if someone argues that the GDR was so bad because the system had to imprison its people the logical conclusion is that, without the wall and the Commie system, the people would stay. But they don't stay, they still leave the region. In 40 years of Communism ~4 mio people left Eastern Germany, in 20 years of Capitalism (yes, a bad word these days, I know), another ~2 mio left. That's the same horrible quota. To the people economic pressure isn't that much better than political pressure. The only difference: during Communism people "fled" the country, now they "migrate".
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Old September 21st, 2010, 10:10 AM   #333
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I don't really get your point. Of course people have left the east since the economic conditions are better in the west. I don't see how that is relevant to the discussion about how bad the SED-leadership was. After all this phenomenon can be seen throughout eastern Europe but my guess is most people are happy that they're no longer told what to do by the Communist authorities.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 11:04 AM   #334
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Well, there's always still the Ostalgia back to the day things were simple, people were educated and things were done for the best for everyone (or at least that suggestion was helt high)

anyway, there's never black and white, there's just history. If you grew up in a shithole, this shithole is precious to you. To be perfectly honest, I just know the present generation and they're very happy with the current status quo of Berlin - a capital where space is dirty cheap and with enough rough edges to house the best parties of Europe. And with the offices of the best people in art, design, advertisement and architecture.

@justme - i don't think it was ugly. It was a sort of chique modernist building - very typical with the brown glass and framing - but it fitted the location, and it would fit fine to the present Alexanderplatz area (with the mix of cummunist plattenbau and massive shopping centres). It just got very detoriated after the Wende.


[img]http://i45.************/2rx8z7l.jpg[/img]

after the Wende:


I've never seen pictures of the inside though, strangely enough. Anyone?
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Old September 21st, 2010, 02:40 PM   #335
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@justme - i don't think it was ugly. It was a sort of chique modernist building - very typical with the brown glass and framing - but it fitted the location...
It didn't fit the location at all! Right in the historical heart of Berlin, in between the museums and the Cathedral and most of all, as the prelude to the royal/imperial boulevard Unter den Linden it had no place there at all!

But I agree, that brand new built it wasn't ugly at all. I actually find it classy!
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Old September 21st, 2010, 05:13 PM   #336
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Ahm, maybe you don't know this, but the wall didn't just seperate East and West Berlin but also East and West Germany.
Well duh. Thanks for the 101 history lesson.

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The wall in Berlin wasn't the onlys wall errected by the Commies. And when I replied to your post you mentioned the GDR and not only Berlin.
We were talking about DDR Berlin, not the whole country. I think the subject title of this thread also gave that away. The population drop after the wall came down was continuing even before, and it's no wonder with how the communists destroyed the local industry.

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But, you know, if someone argues that the GDR was so bad because the system had to imprison its people the logical conclusion is that, without the wall and the Commie system, the people would stay. But they don't stay, they still leave the region. In 40 years of Communism ~4 mio people left Eastern Germany, in 20 years of Capitalism (yes, a bad word these days, I know), another ~2 mio left. That's the same horrible quota. To the people economic pressure isn't that much better than political pressure. The only difference: during Communism people "fled" the country, now they "migrate".
Are you for real? The wall was put in place because people wanted to leave on mass to the far better West. There was no doubt about this. People risked their lives and many lost them trying to get out. A place must be pretty damn horrible to need a giant wall to keep people in, and guard that wall with dogs and machine guns and trip mines. And it must be so horrible living there that people would risk crossing that just to get out.

As for the loss after the wall came down, that is not because of the introduction of capitalism, but because the communist system destroyed the local economies on such a grand scale (as they have always done in every other communist nation) that there was simply no work any more. After unification, you could either sit on your thumbs in a depressed ex communist wasteland or vote with your feet and move to the far more prosperous west where work was awaiting.

The fact that the economy in the East is still so depressed after all these years shows exactly how bad the communists ran the place when they were in control.
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Old September 21st, 2010, 05:15 PM   #337
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Well, there's always still the Ostalgia back to the day things were simple, people were educated and things were done for the best for everyone (or at least that suggestion was helt high)
This is a common effect that most people experience. Most people, wherever they are or come from in the world, have fond memories of their youth or their past despite what actually went down.

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@justme - i don't think it was ugly. It was a sort of chique modernist building - very typical with the brown glass and framing - but it fitted the location, and it would fit fine to the present Alexanderplatz area (with the mix of cummunist plattenbau and massive shopping centres). It just got very detoriated after the Wende.


[IMG]http://i45.************/2rx8z7l.jpg[/IMG]

after the Wende:


I've never seen pictures of the inside though, strangely enough. Anyone?
I have to say, even with those older photos showing it in it's prime, it's still one of the ugliest things I have ever seen in my life.
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Old September 22nd, 2010, 01:04 PM   #338
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Because it fits the current discussion I thought it might be useful to point out that there's an English article about the palace (with pictures of the still intact interior) just after it was closed down at spiegel.de.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...717697,00.html
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Old July 19th, 2011, 09:48 AM   #339
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For the Stadtschloss reconstruction project, I'd like to redirect you to this thread:

BERLIN | City Palace Reconstruction - "Humboldt-Forum"
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