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Old July 11th, 2007, 11:16 PM   #101
leo_sh
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Kampflamm: A lot of governments in German history shots their own citizens, which does not make GDR regime any special. The fact that quite a large number of East German population don't have a negative memory about this regime and quite a few of them go on to vote PDS/Linker speak some truth. To weep out it with a flush is simplistic. To compare with its predecessor, it was much, much more humane, constructive in domestic and world politics, progressive in thinking and handling, restrained in exploiting the world economically, and peace-loving by default (considering its size of population and military). I know it is far from to meet your critical eyes, but GDR was really an absolute win for the welfare of the world. Perhaps less fabulous and grandiose as the contribuation to the humankind by the Federal Republic, but anyway. I have a lot of understanding for the former GDR citizens who feel proud of their once existent country, as well as for those who hate it.
Checker: I have put it very clear - the aesthetics of the castle is average and lukewarm, dispensable and full of clichés, unlike the palace, which is a clear concept, realized with a loving hand, disturbing for those who hate it and the its association, inspiring for those who understand it and can read it in its context. Either way, it is something really special, brain-twisting. This effect is largely resulted from its out-of-placeness, its stark contrast, its uncompromising character against a background of the grayish Prussian environment. If it be built somewhere, it would become a Don Quixot against the blankness. And please don't compare the castle with the Frauenkirche. As a jewel of German high baroque, it is an essential part helping to complete the Dresdener architectual ensemble. The Frauenkirche is really a monument for the German architecture, just as the rest of Dresden. The communists knew this so they left it in ruins instead of sweeping it away. In comparison, what is the castle good for? The castle was famous as the residence of the Kaiser and the power center of the empire, nothing else, really poor. The so-called Humboldt Forum just sounds so spontaneous and out of the air.

Last edited by leo_sh; July 12th, 2007 at 12:08 AM.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 01:04 AM   #102
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Old July 12th, 2007, 01:57 AM   #103
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Quote:
GDR was really an absolute win for the welfare of the world.
Tell that to the people that were locked up for simply speaking their mind.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 02:15 AM   #104
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I really do not know what went wrong with some of the people posting on this thread but could you please explain me how you can do aesthetic judgements on a building that you heaven's even seen in its original condition?
All I've seen (in this thread) so far are pictures of the Palast in today's rundown condition.
So here are some historic pics:







Btw/ together with the Fernsehturm (which is rather unlikely to be destroyed because it is commercialized) it made a perfect composition.



Another point is that it was (and would be today) the best equipped building of its kind in the world (influencing the building other similar structures as the Centre Pompidou in Paris). And before you're arguiung against that I investigated a lot on this building and know what I'm talking about (I studied the masterplan)
Saying it was a representation of the GDR regieme is absolutely ridicoulus. It is true that the Volkskammer (the GDR parliament) was situated in one part of the building (besides it took the smallest volume of it) the SED regieme was situated on the other side of the Marx and Engels Place (today Schloßplatz) in their Staatsratsgebäude.

Apart from that I (as a former East German citizen) feel deeply insulted by what is happening. Not that the destruction of this place was not enough it is also erazed out of all of the souvenir shops and so out of everyone's mind. Have you ever tried to find an item on the Palast in Berlin? Forget it. There's nothing. The senate of Berlin has told the stores to not sell anything reminding of the Palast anymore. (The biggest souvenir shop, Berlin-Story, has in total 4 items on the Palast whereas it has racks full of Schloss related books, postcards and other stuff)

In the end I think that a lot of people would think (or would have thought) different if they just knew a little about this building and did not just see (pictures of) a ruin und a rendering of a fancy castle next to it.
With the Palast not only a building is disappeares but also a big part of Berlin's and Germany's history is erazed from the people's mind.

Last edited by surrounded; July 12th, 2007 at 07:08 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 03:48 AM   #105
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In Paris they also want to rebuild the royal/imperial palace, aka the Tuileries Palace, which burned during the Paris Commune in 1871 and was then torn down by the Republican authorities in 1882 instead of restoring it. Haussmann and many other people were opposed to tearing it down, but the left-wing Republicans did it anyway, just to remove a symbol of the kings and emperors, exactly like what happened to Berlin Stadtschloss.

Now that Berlin is about to rebuild its Stadtschloss, I bet the project of rebuilding the Tuileries Palace is going to come back to the fore in Paris.

Here are some views of the Tuileries Palace before 1871. The roof on top the entrance hall inspired many buildings across America.



The Tuileries Palace stood between the Louvre and the Tuileries Gardens. Here you can see the palace with the Tuileries Gardens in the foreground.



Here is the other side of the Tuileries Palace. You can see the Arc du Carousel which was the entrance gate to the visitors courtyard. State guests entered the palace through this gate. In the distant background you can see the famous Arc de Triomphe standing at the end of the Champs-Élysées. In the foreground where you can see the shrubs is where the Louvre Pyramid stands now.



The same view today. The Arc du Carousel is still standing, but the Tuileries Palace has vanished, and the Arc du Carousel has lost its function as the entrance gate to a royal palace.



The burnt shell of the palace remained for 11 years waiting to be restored. It could have been easily restored, but the left-wing Republicans decided to destroy it for ideological reasons.



The state rooms were as grand as in Versailles, and decorated in the most lavish French style. The interesting thing, unknown to most French people, is that absolutely everything was saved from the fire. The French being art lovers as they are, when the Prussians invaded France in 1870 all the furniture, upholstery, decorations, gilded bronzes, paintings, cristal luminaries, curtains, tapestry, etc., everything from inside the palace was removed and stored in safe places away from Paris, and so they escaped the big fire of 1871.

Everything is now stored in some of the many storehouses of the French governement. There's no room at the Louvre or in any French museum to display these masterpieces of 18th and 19th century French art. One of the goals of rebuilding the Tuileries Palace would be to recreate the state rooms and place all the treasures now stored away from the public back in their original location, to the view of the public. The other smaller rooms would not be rebuilt in their original style but would be used to expand the Louvre Museum which has reached maximum capacity.

Views of some of the state rooms.

Louis XIV Room (Salon Louis XIV):


Hall of Peace (Galerie de la Paix)


Hall of Diana (Galerie de Diane):


Room of Apollo (Salon d'Apollon):


Throne Room:


Room of the Marshals of the Empire (Salon des Maréchaux):


Here is the official website of the committee proposing to rebuild the Tuileries Palace for those who want to find out more: http://www.tuileries.org/
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Old July 12th, 2007, 05:13 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
Tell that to the people that were locked up for simply speaking their mind.
Today people will still be! Speech can be a crime in today's German criminal code.
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Old July 12th, 2007, 05:33 PM   #107
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Come on, you lose all credibility if you think people in the GDR had similar civil rights to people in West Germany. Your comments can get you into trouble if they're slanderous, which is the case in most democratic states.
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Old July 14th, 2007, 05:04 PM   #108
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Quote:
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Come on, you lose all credibility if you think people in the GDR had similar civil rights to people in West Germany. Your comments can get you into trouble if they're slanderous, which is the case in most democratic states.
We are talking about architecture, you are posting Berlin Wall dead bodies. Once it is shocking, twice it is ohlala, thrice it is boring, if not laughable, privately none of us are impressed. Should we attatch a Rotenburg cannibal biography at the end of every posts about the contemporary German architecture?

Berlin Wall dead bodies can remind us how unhuman GDR was; Rotenburg cannibal can remind us how bored and know-nothing-better Today's German society is.

My point is not about being right or wrong, my point is about exaggeration and being over the top.
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Old July 14th, 2007, 05:10 PM   #109
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You brought politics into this by drawing a link between the Hohenzollerns, the palace and both world wars (while presenting the communist regime in East Germany as some sort of great philanthropic government).

And what does the cannibal have to do with any of this? There's a huge difference between state sanctioned murder and some lunatic who enjoys eating other people's genitalia.
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Old July 16th, 2007, 12:07 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surrounded View Post
Saying it was a representation of the GDR regieme is absolutely ridicoulus. It is true that the Volkskammer (the GDR parliament) was situated in one part of the building (besides it took the smallest volume of it) the SED regieme was situated on the other side of the Marx and Engels Place (today Schloßplatz) in their Staatsratsgebäude.
Of course it was a representation of the GDR government.
Regardless how much space the parliament took up in the building.
They blew up the castle (which was represantation of the prussian monarchy) in order to build it.
But I guess we cant ague about taste though. The palace looked maybe just about acceptable when it was new but architectionally I prefer the castle.
What bothers me a bit is that we are destroying a part of our history though.
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Old July 16th, 2007, 11:57 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kampflamm View Post
You brought politics into this by drawing a link between the Hohenzollerns, the palace and both world wars (while presenting the communist regime in East Germany as some sort of great philanthropic government).

And what does the cannibal have to do with any of this? There's a huge difference between state sanctioned murder and some lunatic who enjoys eating other people's genitalia.
I don't post dead men, dude.
And the original comment about Hohenzollerns is not about the architecture, but a reminder to yours about the relationship between them and Adolf Hitler. And it is allocated in a P.S..
Your original comment:
"And please spare me this typical 'imperial Germany is bad' whining. The Hohenzollerns had nothing to do with Nazism, so don't blame Hitler's crimes on them."

The Hohenzollerns indeed had nothing to do with Nazi's antisemitism, but they had everything to do with Hitler's anti-slavonic attitudes, militarism and expansionism. When Hitler was still in Austria, he detested the multiculturalism of the Habsburgs and their prudeness in warefare, and regarded German emperor as the role model. This was well recorded. The Hohenzollerns themselves were directly envolved in warmongering, massacring defenceless civilians during wartime, colonization, and genocide. And there are evidence, documents, and articles published in Germany proving this involvement. When Hitler already banished the democracy and began to persecute the Jews and propagate the war, the German emperor in exile sent Hitler the message that he would cooperate with Hitler in exchange of restoring the monarchy. This is a known fact.

These facts put the imperial Germany and the Hohenzollerns in a context that seems anything sinister than benign.

This is a separate discussion, which does not have anything to do with architecture. And this is obvious in my original post.

If it has anything to do with architecture, it is because any mentions about the palace of the people are inevitably dragged into this kind of association. While the palace is despised as the symbol of the evil regime, the Stadtschloss appears to be context-free. If the latter is clean, the continuous muttering about the former's symbolism just doesn't sound genuine.

And neither did I portrait the GDR regime as philanthopic, or anything great. It made fewer troubles for its neighbors. A lot of East Germans feel proud of this. We know it is a self-comfort. I just relay this joke. That's it.

You ask what the cannibal has to do with German architecture? No, it hasn't. But it has just enough clichés in it about the German people, it is good enough to set some people aback who might have a interest in German architecture. Political labelling is another kind of clichés that kills original discussions. But your blantant apologist stance to the imperial Germany may be something more than the clichés.

Last edited by leo_sh; July 17th, 2007 at 03:31 AM.
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Old July 18th, 2007, 02:08 AM   #112
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mmmm... I doubt about it... maybe an spectacular modern building would be better ....
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Old July 30th, 2007, 10:16 AM   #113
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Personally what I find interesting is how people deride the DDR gvt for being "Evil" yet you want to rebuild the house of the second Reich which killed 9 million people directly or indirectly, and was also a tyrannical monarchical imperialist, racist, militaristic power...if anything the DDR looks like Mickey Mouse compared to what that palace represented.

It is a real shame that they are tearing down the Palast, it could have been used as a museum of DDR history, or other cultural purposes could have been easily fulfilled in the building as it was used right before its demolition. I do not think that the Palast was an "ugly" building, it had its charm if it was in its original condition as was mentioned prior. I think people have a bias against "socialist architecture", but if the Palast was London or New York it would be a masterpiece...I mean you wanna talk about ugly buildings:

http://www.albany.edu/~ec494772/EDSt...nedyCenter.jpg

No that isn't Moscow, its the Kennedy Center in Washington.
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Old August 2nd, 2007, 05:32 PM   #114
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As an Australian who recently travelled to Berlin I would like to throw in my opinion.

I think its a real disaster that the Palast is being demolished. Its probably one of the first modern buildings of our time, that should have been protected from demolishion (and, perhaps, just like the building in its spot should have).

I found a real strong attitude in Germany that seemed to accept, and be quite open about the years from 1933 to 1945, however between 1945 and 1989, basically it seems the history of the West Germany rules. Its as if East Germany was an inconvienient stain in Germany becoming the amazing nation it is in 2007 since WW2. Just the feeling I got, anyway......

I know this building is a stark reminder of a very dark regime, but demolishing it and construction a crude replica of something before it is nothing but tacky. People dont go to Berlin to admire its pre 20th century achitecture, unlike the rest of Europe it has a character that is far deeper than aestetics. Let alone a replica.

But whats now done is done, just done build the replica. The site is worthy of something new.
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Old September 19th, 2007, 12:04 PM   #115
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Sooo slow...

http://www.*****************/pc/pc/ca...splay/10270444
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Old October 17th, 2007, 10:27 PM   #116
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I understand the desire to preserve historical buildings, but I don't have a problem with them tearing it down, after all it was built by a regime founded at the end of a Russian burp gun.

Just remember they're not rebuilding the previous structure, it's a new one made to just resemble it. this concept (new building in old style) is nothing new in parts of Europe affected by war.
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Old October 22nd, 2007, 05:18 PM   #117
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Another angle of the demolition, different from the DHM. the larger of the two structures making up the Palast is almost on its last breath.



interesting fact i found on this site. the concrete "bowl" constructed as a foundation of the PdR will live on as the foundation for any new structure. the interim green space, which is made of a sand/water mixture, is necessary to keep this foundation from rising. this filler can be easily pumped out when the weight of the new structure is in place.

More at:
http://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.d...index_en.shtml
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Old May 14th, 2008, 11:43 AM   #118
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Quote:
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Sure, but that doesn't mean Berlin has to remain a butt ugly city. It'll be one of the nicest palaces in Germany and it'll make a great ensemble along with the Dom, the Museum's Island and the end of Unter den Linden (Kommandantur, Zeughaus).
I find this post to be somewhat self-contradictory.

So, what is it? If Berlin is "butt-ugly", why are you so fond of making an "ensemble" of buildings/streets of this butt-uglyness?

In my opinion, Berlin is a beautiful city, with or without the new castle, much thanks to these areas you mention here.
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Old May 14th, 2008, 02:23 PM   #119
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What exactly is contradictory there? It's ugly and the castle will alleviate some that (along with the surrounding buildings). It really couldn't be any less self-contradictory.
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Old May 15th, 2008, 02:03 AM   #120
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It really couldn't be any less self-contradictory.
Off course it could. If a city of some 3.5 million people is "butt-ugly", simple maths tells you that one single building will have minimal impact on this "fact".

It sounds like you think this decision (to raze the Palace of the Republic, and replace it with some other palace) is the decisive factor for the looks of Berlin:

Quote:
Sure, but that doesn't mean Berlin has to remain a butt ugly city.
Translation:

"Keep it, and Berlin will remain a butt-ugly city."

"Raze it, and rebuild an older palace, and Berlin will become so much better to behold."

Your arguments are out of proportions.
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