[Prague] City Ring

[kokpit]

Construction of Královská obora tunnel (3090m) portals in Letná park near Sparta stadium just starting.
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[kokpit]

opposite side of tunnel in Troja near Vltava riverbank
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[kokpit]

Great fly-through videos of Mrázovka tunnel (1004m, opened in 08/2004) on Prague City Ring.

North - South drive

South-North drive

[kokpit]

City Ring updates
future tunnel portals in Letná

and in Trója
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[headshottt]

wow, they just started with tunneling

[headshottt]

[headshottt]

[historyworks]

When I look at these transportation works (road and rail) I am agog with envy and I wonder how they are paid for. Here in Australia we have twice the population of Česko and our biggest cities are 3 to 4 million and we pay 20 to 40% tax (according to income) and the government says there is not enough money.

In Sydney we have a slow old railway system built in 1920s. We only have some motorways because private companies build and own them and we pay expensive tolls to use them. And we can't say the money goes to schools and hospitals because those are worse than in Česko. So how do you do it guys? What's the public financing system over there?

(But we have nice beaches here and the Pacific Ocean so you guys can envy that! )

[kokpit]

^ quite surprising you complain about infrastructure in such rich country/continent as Australia.
There are many differences, Europe is more densely inhabited and lorries go from east to the west and reversely, we are transit country so we need these roads and railroads (our infrstructure is still underdeveloped compared with western Europe). Australia is leisure country, you have big cities but not so many traffic I guess. And of course, airports are much more important in Australia than here because of the long distances betwen cities.

[historyworks]

Here apparently taxes are not enough for big infrastruture projects so they used loans for years (it took 60 years to pay off loan on Sydney Harbour Bridge!). Now they are going for public private partnerships (PPPs) where a private company or consortium builds the infrastructure and charges a toll for say 30 years and then (hopefully) after that ownership will go back to the government.

So how does CR (or any other central European country) pay for these projects? Is it all from taxes, is there EU funding....? Or do you take loans too? I realise it is hard catering for traffic transiting across the European continent so you have to cater for other countries also.

Also interesting I believe that Prague city council funds the metro and tramway. Here no Australian city Council would be wealthy enough for that. Only Brisbane does this and that is only bus services. Airlines here are important for passengers sure but freight is by truck and train. Private cars are biggest transport in cities unfortunately and public transport is poor. Of course we have 1000 km between big cities and biggest cities are 50-60 km across but I'm sure these factors are not huge contributers to infrastructure cost.

So is CR a rich country or what's the secret?

[RawLee]

Originally Posted by historyworks

Here apparently taxes are not enough for big infrastruture projects so they used loans for years (it took 60 years to pay off loan on Sydney Harbour Bridge!). Now they are going for public private partnerships (PPPs) where a private company or consortium builds the infrastructure and charges a toll for say 30 years and then (hopefully) after that ownership will go back to the government.

So how does CR (or any other central European country) pay for these projects? Is it all from taxes, is there EU funding....? Or do you take loans too? I realise it is hard catering for traffic transiting across the European continent so you have to cater for other countries also.

Also interesting I believe that Prague city council funds the metro and tramway. Here no Australian city Council would be wealthy enough for that. Only Brisbane does this and that is only bus services. Airlines here are important for passengers sure but freight is by truck and train. Private cars are biggest transport in cities unfortunately and public transport is poor. Of course we have 1000 km between big cities and biggest cities are 50-60 km across but I'm sure these factors are not huge contributers to infrastructure cost.

So is CR a rich country or what's the secret?

Everyone does the same. We use local funds,EiB loans and EU money. In Budapest, gov pays like 20% of the new metro,hopefully EU will pay 50-75%,and the city 5%. We build 100km-ish highways yearly,and that goes for almost every country in the region. I believe trams and buses are paid only by cities,maybe gov.
BTW,CZ.

[Qwert]

In all CE countries it's similar. The money are from taxes, EU funds, PPP or simply loan. For example right now Slovak government anounnces 5 billion EUR PPP highway project. Other parts of highways are financed from taxes and EU funds. There are no secrets.

[kokpit]

Yes, EU funds should help us quite a lot in forthcoming years.

[historyworks]

Thanks guys, that explains things a lot - so not so different. Here in Australia I think the problem is also political indecision and influence by the green lobby. Environmental movements always opposed highways (because of air pollution, fair enough) but now they are opposing railway projects too. Crazy! Plus people do not want infrastructure going near their houses (even underground) so politicians try to please everybody to win votes. This is a universal phenomenon I guess! Anyway you are very lucky getting all that infrastructure and your public transport is a dream.

[RawLee]

Originally Posted by historyworks

Thanks guys, that explains things a lot - so not so different. Here in Australia I think the problem is also political indecision and influence by the green lobby. Environmental movements always opposed highways (because of air pollution, fair enough) but now they are opposing railway projects too. Crazy! Plus people do not want infrastructure going near their houses (even underground) so politicians try to please everybody to win votes. This is a universal phenomenon I guess! Anyway you are very lucky getting all that infrastructure and your public transport is a dream.

Against railways???How can an electric train pollute?

[historyworks]

Originally Posted by RawLee

Against railways???How can an electric train pollute?

I am wondering too. I hope your greens do not go to the lunatic extreme they do here. The greens object to the coal-fired power stations used to generate the electricity (these are located in the countryside not the city). The other objectors are what we call NIMBYs ("not in my back yard") - they don't want any infrastructure near their houses. All it achieves is it ties political debate up in knots for years. But now I think there is the beginning of a reaction against it - Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane (the biggest cities) are 30-50 years behind in transport infrastructure development and now it causes a big cost to the economy, so government is panicking. It is a good lesson in the need for proper planning.

[RawLee]

Originally Posted by historyworks

I am wondering too. I hope your greens do not go to the lunatic extreme they do here. The greens object to the coal-fired power stations used to generate the electricity (these are located in the countryside not the city). The other objectors are what we call NIMBYs ("not in my back yard") - they don't want any infrastructure near their houses. All it achieves is it ties political debate up in knots for years. But now I think there is the beginning of a reaction against it - Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane (the biggest cities) are 30-50 years behind in transport infrastructure development and now it causes a big cost to the economy, so government is panicking. It is a good lesson in the need for proper planning.

Oh yes,dark greens(as we call them)now object wind power plants,because they can kill birds. they object nuclear(if coal and oil bad,and renewable is not at sufficient advanced technology,then what else can be used in a flat country?)They object the ringroad around Budapest,the traffic this way goes through the city,poisoning approx 2 million inside,and like 500 thousand outside. In the countryside,they are not really active. We almost lost EU funds(90% of total cost) on the eastern section of the ringroad,because they rejected it totally.
I dont know what are they like around us,but here,they dont do anything that could help,and object critical investments.
The coal plants here started investing in biomass reactors,so greens are not that harsh against them. with subways,we are good. Only surface infrastructure needs land to be bought,since the country(gov)owns everything beneath. Basically,you buy the surface,and some air above,but you cant really object what is built below the house.

[historyworks]

Similarly government here can do anything under your land - they can even buy your land off you by compulsion if needed for infrastructure. However the problem is "democracy" (ha ha, how ironic!). Every development has to have public comment and the greens and nimbys are educated and organised and even though they are a minority they can do a lot to thwart or make difficult a development. And politicians are worried about losing votes so they give in or compromise.

A good example is one new railway line in Sydney (one of only three little bits in 60 years!!). It was going to cross a river by bridge over a deep natural valley. The greens influenced them to build it underground under the river so it will now have very steep gradients either side which will use more electric power for trains - and a station under a university is now cancelled because the line is now too deep! Similarly same people have stopped the major motorway from Sydney to the north joining the ring road motorway, as a result huge traffic, trucks and everything goes into narrow streets with houses and standstill traffic jams. This is what we live with here and I hope such silliness does not come your way in CE. Be warned!

Sorry to take up space talking about Australian issues in your section - Australian section of this forum has more details. But I find the comparison very helpful because Australia is probably a similar size economy to CE countries - not huge like US, UK or Germany. So thanks for the discussion, the exchange of ideas is good.

[RawLee]

Originally Posted by historyworks

Similarly government here can do anything under your land - they can even buy your land off you by compulsion if needed for infrastructure. However the problem is "democracy" (ha ha, how ironic!). Every development has to have public comment and the greens and nimbys are educated and organised and even though they are a minority they can do a lot to thwart or make difficult a development. And politicians are worried about losing votes so they give in or compromise.

A good example is one new railway line in Sydney (one of only three little bits in 60 years!!). It was going to cross a river by bridge over a deep natural valley. The greens influenced them to build it underground under the river so it will now have very steep gradients either side which will use more electric power for trains - and a station under a university is now cancelled because the line is now too deep! Similarly same people have stopped the major motorway from Sydney to the north joining the ring road motorway, as a result huge traffic, trucks and everything goes into narrow streets with houses and standstill traffic jams. This is what we live with here and I hope such silliness does not come your way in CE. Be warned!

Sorry to take up space talking about Australian issues in your section - Australian section of this forum has more details. But I find the comparison very helpful because Australia is probably a similar size economy to CE countries - not huge like US, UK or Germany. So thanks for the discussion, the exchange of ideas is good.

you havent been in a european traffic jam if you havent been in cities in the regionTell me,around which city do you see a ringroad?

[historyworks]

So its a traffic jam competition is it? I lived in London for a couple of years and travelled around W and S Europe by car so know all about traffic thanks! And by comparison we have pretty bad ones in Australia too but admittedly not as big a vehicle fleet as Europe.

Thanks for the maps RawLee. My map of Prague shows a ring road under development at least. But you have good public transport you see. Here something like 80-85% of peak hour travel is by car. We started off with English style cities (terraced housing) and good tramway systems. Then after 1940s we turned into big American style cities with spread out housing and everyone in cars. This is our problem, you are lucky in that regard.