daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Continental Forums > North American Skyscrapers Forum > Metropolis & States > Florida

Florida Welcome to the sunshine state



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 19th, 2006, 06:35 PM   #1
John F
Registered User
 
John F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Palm Harbor, Florida
Posts: 2,327
Likes (Received): 46

What would have to happen for Tampa to leave Hillsborough County?

I know the concept might seem crazy at first thought -- and a logistics nightmare as well - but what woudl the City of Tampa have to do if they wanted to succeed from Hillsboorugh County? It can be argued if they would star there own county where the city commission equaled the county commission, or joined Pinellas County (where the COmmission has less backwards thinking people)...

But with Tampa and Hillsborough being at odds routinely (and there's more conflict between the two entities than the last few years worth), and the fact the county has a preference for serving it's rural and suburban residents as to City residents and the city itself... Doesn't it seem like the city needs to be outside Hillsborough in order to better serve it's residents?
__________________
Raw Charge - Tampa Bay Lightning hockey
John F no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
 
Old January 19th, 2006, 07:18 PM   #2
robbie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 274
Likes (Received): 0

Actually long ago Pinellas was part of Hillsborough, then they seceeded. Can you blame them? If Brandon and Plant City could form could separate themselves from the rest of Hillsborough, that would be great. What about Lutz? It has a lot of "Idlewild's".
robbie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2006, 07:33 PM   #3
smiley
Registered User
 
smiley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Tampa
Posts: 4,158
Likes (Received): 103

Not gonna happen. Anyway, it wouldn't help anything. The city would then have to pay for everything without any county help. . . and the airport, and the stadium, etc. . .
__________________
Do I contradict myself?
Well then, I contradict myself.
I am large.
I contain multitudes.

I don't pretend 'cause I don't care.
smiley no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2006, 07:36 PM   #4
John F
Registered User
 
John F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Palm Harbor, Florida
Posts: 2,327
Likes (Received): 46

Quote:
Originally Posted by robbie
Actually long ago Pinellas was part of Hillsborough, then they seceeded. Can you blame them? If Brandon and Plant City could form could separate themselves from the rest of Hillsborough, that would be great. What about Lutz? It has a lot of "Idlewild's".
Knew Pinellas left Hillsborough in the past...

I was wondering what would need to be done about cities and property west of the city and part of Hillsborough too (lutz et all)
__________________
Raw Charge - Tampa Bay Lightning hockey
John F no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2006, 07:39 PM   #5
John F
Registered User
 
John F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Palm Harbor, Florida
Posts: 2,327
Likes (Received): 46

Quote:
Originally Posted by smiley
Not gonna happen. Anyway, it wouldn't help anything. The city would then have to pay for everything without any county help. . . and the airport, and the stadium, etc. . .
Smiley, that's why I left it open ended with regards to HOW the city left Hillsborough. If they left to form there own county, you would be correct. If they left to join Pinellas county...

I don't know if the total population of Pinellas is greater than Hillsborough. It is the most densly populated county... It's also one that is stubborn on it's suburban ways.... But that's a site better than trying to identify with rural values
__________________
Raw Charge - Tampa Bay Lightning hockey
John F no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2006, 07:53 PM   #6
robbie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 274
Likes (Received): 0

I don't know how it would get started but it's a whole lotta politics. Look at little Ruskin trying to incorporate and how much is involved in that.
robbie no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2006, 08:28 PM   #7
SDK4
FSU Meteorologist
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sarasota / Tallahassee
Posts: 1,279
Likes (Received): 78

There is no way Tampa would be able to leave Hillsborough County. For one there is way too much legal red tape that would block such a move.
__________________
Go Noles!!!
SDK4 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2006, 09:03 PM   #8
samsonyuen
SSLL
 
samsonyuen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Canary Wharf > CityPlace
Posts: 8,495
Likes (Received): 279

Are there many examples of cities leaving their counties in Florida?
samsonyuen no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2006, 09:19 PM   #9
John F
Registered User
 
John F's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Palm Harbor, Florida
Posts: 2,327
Likes (Received): 46

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDK4
There is no way Tampa would be able to leave Hillsborough County. For one there is way too much legal red tape that would block such a move.

SD, I'm not directing this soley at you -- but when I wrote the thread... Examples fo the Re Tape were what I was wondering bout.

I know everyone is pessimistic about things happening, but I want to know just WHAT would have to happen for it to happen... Not the "It's too touch so pointless to discuss" argument.
__________________
Raw Charge - Tampa Bay Lightning hockey
John F no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2006, 09:57 PM   #10
smiley
Registered User
 
smiley's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Tampa
Posts: 4,158
Likes (Received): 103

I have lived here my whole life and I can say with reasonable certainty that there it is more likely that Tampa will join Cuba than Pinellas County
__________________
Do I contradict myself?
Well then, I contradict myself.
I am large.
I contain multitudes.

I don't pretend 'cause I don't care.
smiley no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2006, 08:30 AM   #11
TamHavPolis
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tampa, FL/Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 129
Likes (Received): 0

I just thank God that Tampa-Hillsborough County doesn't have a fully unified government like Miami-Dade. Can you imagine Ronda Storms dictating politics for the city?
TamHavPolis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2006, 05:16 PM   #12
Jasonhouse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,892
Likes (Received): 643

^See, Rhonda Storms would have never been elected in that case... Not a snowball's chance in hell.
Jasonhouse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2006, 05:50 PM   #13
tampabound
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Tampa, FL (Ybor)
Posts: 76
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by John F
But with Tampa and Hillsborough being at odds routinely (and there's more conflict between the two entities than the last few years worth), and the fact the county has a preference for serving it's rural and suburban residents as to City residents and the city itself... Doesn't it seem like the city needs to be outside Hillsborough in order to better serve it's residents?
I totally agree with the idea. City and county should be completely separate (different governments for different people). If this issue was ever in any ballot I would totally favor for total separation.

For the most part I think both entities are separate, but there are still things that have historically always been shared. Things like services (roads, wastewater, schools, public housing) are county wide but they affect the city because it is part of the city. I think the model has worked fine until fairly recently and we have started to see the "clash" between both governments. I think there are two reasons why this clash happens:
1. Power has shifted from the city to the county. Most people no longer live within city boundaries (thanks to sprawl) and therefore the county now exercises political muscle it never had.
2. Philosophical reason. The county and the city are made up by very distinct political bodies (ie: the county commission is conservative while the city is by far liberal).
Because of the power shift, the county commissioners have adopted an attitude of defiance against the city : "you dont control us anymore, we do what we want". This attitude feels vindictive, mean-spirited, and counterproductive to me and that's why I think the two governments should be completely separate.

I do not know what level of "separateness" we need. I know complete separation is not possible (maybe because of federal laws that bind us together or because we just can't under certain circumstances) but I think the city should be fully autonomous in aspects like:
1. Deciding what type of public transportation it provides to its citizens, be it a bus system, a trolley, or light rail. The county should have NO say in this since it does not affect the people in the county.
2. Approving or disapproving housing proposals in the city. The money spent for public housing in the city should not have to be approved by anyone in the county such as when they rejected the Civitas project (which would have been mixed-income but needed money from public housing)
3. County employees should work in the county and city employees should
work in the city. This would allow each governement to tell what their employees should or shoulnd't do. Therefore, the county can't say that libraries in the city of Tampa can't display books by gay writters or city officials tell teachers in the county that certain religious holidays are no longer holidays.
I think the main problem here is money. The county "pays" for these services because people in the city of Tampa pay county taxes to provide those services. You see where this is going...we need to stop paying county taxes and pay more to the city to provide those services that the county would provide if we payed them.
tampabound no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2006, 05:59 PM   #14
Jasonhouse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,892
Likes (Received): 643

The problem is, the city basically 'makes' money off of the county...

Of course, the problem for the county is that alot of the jobs and other amenities its residents need are in the city.
Jasonhouse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2006, 07:00 PM   #15
Quegiebo
SoHo
 
Quegiebo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Tampa
Posts: 1,006
Likes (Received): 6

Is it possible to offer a referendum in the next election that promotes separation of the two entities?
Quegiebo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 20th, 2006, 08:38 PM   #16
jzquince69
jimmy
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: orlando
Posts: 2,773
Likes (Received): 695

I might be wrong, but Miami-Dade is a separate entity from Miami. They put "miami" in the name in the late -90's partly as a marketing move. THey each have their respective "mayors" and/or county commissioner (depending on what Panellas' title is).
jzquince69 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 21st, 2006, 08:09 AM   #17
Jasonhouse
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 13,892
Likes (Received): 643

Didn't someone ask about a county-wide Mayor or something?



The Perfect Storms Case For Mayor

The Tampa Tribune
Commentary By DANIEL RUTH
Published: Jan 20, 2006




You could reasonably make all sorts of high-toned Public Administration 101 arguments why it might be a good idea to at least consider creating a countywide-elected-mayor form of government.

But here's probably the best one of all - adult supervision.

After all, when you think Hillsborough County presently is being ruled over by a lunch pail of pols who make the Vichy government look like the Shangri-La city council, the notion of a single chief executive in charge of things starts to look pretty good.

Indeed, it was this notion of the county being lorded over by a buffet line of politicos seemingly more preoccupied with where their next free crab claw was coming from rather that actually governing that prompted Tampa lawyer Mary Ann Stiles to launch a grass-roots effort to collect nearly 40,000 signatures to put the issue of an elected county mayor on November's ballot.

Mount Rushmore

Thus it was the other evening at a League of Women Voters event that Stiles found herself debating perhaps the Mount-Rushmore-sized billboard that more than makes the case for the idea of a county mayor: Commissioner Ronda Storms, who is to political dysfunction what Michael Jackson is to sleepovers.

Really now, all Stiles has to do when asked why Hillsborough County needs to transform its government to accommodate a county mayor is point toward Storms, a walking crime against cosmetology, and say: "I'm pretty well done here. Any other questions?"

Interestingly enough it was Storms herself who agreed Stiles will likely succeed in getting the mayoral initiative on the ballot, who then engaged in a piece of shameless political blithering.

Storms argued that residents should vote for the creation of an elected county mayor if they want higher taxes, a dilapidated infrastructure and flaps over where to situate an art museum.

Uh-huh, as if Storms and her fellow freeloaders on the county commission have exhibited bold, decisive, collegial unanimity.

About the only thing these folks have reached a consensus on is their fear homosexuality might be contracted through a public library display and that bikini bars represent a greater danger to society than a nuclear winter.

Sense Of Whimsy

Other than that these folks get along together about as well as the Shiites and the Sunnis, the Serbs and the Croats, the Hutus and the Tutsis.

That's not a county commission. It's "The 700 Club," only without the sense of whimsy.

Look, no one would suggest the arrival of an elected county mayor would lead to an age of enlightenment.

But it would consolidate management authority over the day-to-day operation of a region with more than 1 million residents, rather than in the hands of an expense account of shills with all the leadership skills of the Lil' Rascals meet "Animal Farm."

The opposition to a county mayor has less to do with the structure of local government than it does a diminution of commission power.

For the creation of a county mayor would represent the arrival pre-eminent political figure, or put another way, under a county mayor, the commissioners might actually have to do the dirty work of legislating rather than preening and proselytizing.

In the end Mary Ann Stiles argued the issue should be resolved the old-fashioned way. "Let voters and not politicians decide who is going to be in charge of this county," she urged.

If that's the case, the dinner mints of public servants on the Hillsborough County Commission should be afraid - very afraid.
Jasonhouse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 22nd, 2006, 05:33 AM   #18
thehappysmith
Two-bit Hack
 
thehappysmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Greenville
Posts: 333
Likes (Received): 2

The best recent example of this, if you want to look into the history, would be Broomfield County, Colorado (c. 2000). No city in Florida has ever separated itself from its county. The state government--pressured by county governments--has not approved a new county since the 20s, though there have been attempts (Ocean County, which would have been the beach communities of Duval plus possibly Amelia Island, is the most recent I remember, from about 1993-4 or so).
As to how it would go about doing it, like I said, Broomfield Co. is the only recent example of a city separating from its county (in that case, four counties, I think, which is why they separated). I looked in the Florida Constitution, article VIII, which talks about local government.

The first thing you have to think about is the distinction between cities and counties. A city is a corporation. A county is merely a jurisdictional unit. Cities exist independent of counties only in four states; Florida does not have a provision for independent cities. Cities tax their residents; counties tax theirs. Counties spend their money throughout the county, rather than exclusively in unincorporated areas. Which means, cities within counties that have large unincorporated areas generally receive more tax expenditure than they pay in revenues; though not universally true this is still generally the case across the state and across the country. This is why Ruskin and Apollo Beach, which produce large revenues for the county but receive comparatively less in expenditures, want to incorporate (it's not quite so cut and dried, of course, but that's what the pro-incorporation side will tell you).

However, if despite the ultimate loss in revenue you still want to get out of Hillsborough, you first have to create a new county consisting of all the territory that is the city of Tampa. Other land could go along, I suppose, though it would look like a backdoor annexation and that would no doubt cause additional headaches. Then, the city would have to consolidate with the county, a la Jacksonville-Duval. Consolidation would be a relative cakewalk compared to creating the new county.

The state constitution isn't much help: Article VIII, S.1a: Counties may be created, abolished or changed by law, with provision for payment or apportionment of the public debt.

I haven't been able to find anything relevant in any recent Florida Statutes, but that doesn't mean it's not out there somewhere. From what I remember of the Ocean County affair, Duval County was against it, but all Duval County residents weren't going to vote or anything. It was to be decided entirely by potential future residents of Ocean County, though Duval of course lobbied heavily against the idea. It never caught on in the state leg either because it was feared that, if Ocean County went forward, beach communities across the state would try to secede from their counties.

This is the same reasoning the U.S. government uses to militate against the secession of, for example, Montenegro from Serbia, or south Sudan from Sudan--once one region secedes, every other region will follow suit. This is absurd, but it's been official policy for decades, and is worth mentioning because a similar situation applies here. If Tampa secedes from the county that harbors its suburbs, why then wouldn't Orlando, Miami, Fort Myers, St. Petersburg, Pensacola, Key West, et al attempt to follow suit. Of course this ignores political reality, but nobody's better ignoring political reality than politicians.

Ultimately, a (non-binding) referendum would have to be held in the city limits (or the limits of the proposed new county), and, should that referendum pass, then a petition is drawn up and submitted to the state legislature, which ultimately has the power to create new counties (and grant charters to new municipalities, as well). (In reality, I don't think a referendum is required; certainly you could petition the state yourself to create a new county, but without a referendum or at least some sort of petition with the signature of every voter in the area or something, the state would just laugh at you.)
Ignoring all economic issues, simply getting political approval for this from the state leg would be extremely difficult. It's not a matter of "legal red tape," which isn't really the case at all. The constitution couldn't be more open-ended on the matter--create the new county by law. Whooptee-doo. The matter is one of politics, and politics stops everything in its tracks. There is always the slim chance that a majority of Hillsboco officials would say, great, give them a new county, we don't want to have Tampa in our county anyway. But then, Hillsborough County would just be the same as Pasco County, and who gives a rip about Pasco County? This wouldn't be a free affair for what's left of Hillsboco anyway, since they'd have to assign a new county seat, build new county government offices, and begin sending services into parts of the county currently served by Tampa services (water and sewer, etc). It just isn't worth it to them.

Economically, it's a huge problem. The city uses county money to fund a lot of projects that are going to happen exclusively in the city. The inability of an independent city to fund everything is the main reason why indy cities are not popular--in the past decade two indy cities in Virginia have torn up their city charters, rejoined their counties, and become "towns." Both (Clifton Forge and South Boston) are still corporate entities with borders and municipal powers, just like Tampa, but they are no longer acting as their own county.

The problem with being your own county is, how are you going to fund everything? In the case of South Boston and Clifton Forge, people from outside the cities used city services and city amenities, but didn't pay a dime to support those amenities or services (except utilities in the case of South Boston). Tampa/Hillsborough are in the same situation. Tampa has a lot of great amenities and services that I, as a Tampa resident, use every day. But so do lots of non-Tampa residents. I want those county residents paying for those amenities through county taxes, because if they're going to use them they should pay. Tampa County taxes would have to be raised to maintain the level of services we in the city currently enjoy, and I as a voter would never vote for that--nor would most other city voters. There are a lot of things I'll vote to raise my taxes for: better schools, more police, a streetcar extension. Freedom from Ronda Storms is not one of them. Keep in mind, too, if political differences are the main justification for splitting the county, New Tampa, the only part of the city that makes money, would almost certainly secede from the city and remain with Hillsborough. This would simply make matters worse for Tampa County.

Still, if you wanted to try it, I believe all you need to do is petition the elections supervisor to put a line on the ballot for all city of Tampa residents, a non-binding referendum (call it a straw vote if you want) asking if voters would prefer to remain a part of Hillsborough County, or form their own county. Then, you need to fund a major ad campaign to convince voters to support it (and bear in mind I'll be funding a campaign against it), and, if you prevail in November (or, put it on the September primary ballot because it skews turnout and that might aid your cause), get a local legislator to draw up a bill in the 2007 session creating the new county. Then hire lobbyists to convince members of the state legislature to support the bill. Easy enough, right?
thehappysmith no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 23rd, 2006, 04:41 AM   #19
SDK4
FSU Meteorologist
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Sarasota / Tallahassee
Posts: 1,279
Likes (Received): 78

Classic :
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jasonhouse
Commissioner Ronda Storms, who is to political dysfunction what Michael Jackson is to sleepovers.
__________________
Go Noles!!!
SDK4 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 25th, 2006, 12:03 AM   #20
Agent Orange
Deaf and dumb
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: The great blight of dullness
Posts: 297
Likes (Received): 1

If I am not mistaken, the Tampa city limits extend all the up to the Pasco border. This would mean that separation by Tampa would leave Hillsborough county in two separated halves. If that occurred, then I'd say let the west county join Pinellas and the east county join Polk. I'm sure the Brandoners and other bumblefvcks would feel right at home.
Agent Orange no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT +2. The time now is 01:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like v3.2.5 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

Hosted by Blacksun, dedicated to this site too!
Forum server management by DaiTengu