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Old December 10th, 2009, 06:03 PM   #181
Isek
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Well, plannings for the HSL from Stuttgart to Ulm are under way. But you are right there will be continuous 330 or 360 kph track to Munich. The tracks from Munich to Augsburg are widened from 1x2 to 2x2 right now. But speed will be limited to only 230! A shame for Germany but if you consider that Augsburg is only 40 km from Munich it is oki.

So let's sum up

Stuttgart - Ulm 250 kph
Ulm - Ausburg 200 kph
Augsburg - Munich 230 kph

Not really impressing...
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Old December 10th, 2009, 06:14 PM   #182
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especially since it should be part of an inter-european hsl: London-Paris-Stuttgart-München-Wien-Budapest-Bucharest-Istanbul

i'll probably die before that connection exists, imagine that at 360 kph
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Old December 11th, 2009, 12:09 AM   #183
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...London-Paris-Stuttgart-München-Wien-Budapest-Bucharest-Istanbul.....imagine that at 360 kph
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Old December 11th, 2009, 12:14 AM   #184
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make that Glasgow-Ankara
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Old December 11th, 2009, 10:34 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isek View Post
Well, plannings for the HSL from Stuttgart to Ulm are under way. But you are right there will be continuous 330 or 360 kph track to Munich. The tracks from Munich to Augsburg are widened from 1x2 to 2x2 right now. But speed will be limited to only 230! A shame for Germany but if you consider that Augsburg is only 40 km from Munich it is oki.

So let's sum up

Stuttgart - Ulm 250 kph
Ulm - Ausburg 200 kph
Augsburg - Munich 230 kph

Not really impressing...
No, not impressive at all. That said, I think they have in mind another new line Ulm-Augsburg for 250 km/h. This would be part of an ensemble with the planned line Frankfurt-Mannheim and ulitmately link Cologne with Munich at (reasonably) high speed.

My more fundamental problem is an element of the German psyche which seems to make true high-speed virtually impossible: any medium sized city shall be, and remain, connected to the main network. - And not only that but through the old railway station in the city centre. It's very unlike, for example, in France where people have the same attitude to HS rail as they have to Autoroutes: they should pass reasonably close by the main cities, but they should never, ever run through the urban environment.

Given that the train between Stuttgart and Munich must, imperatively, run through the "Altstadt" of Ulm and Augsburg with speeds probably not exceeding 100 km/h there's not much point in investing in 300+ km/h between the towns. Afterward can then the "Town Kings" of these medium-sized cities use the low speed as an argument that each ICE must, imperatively, stop in their town. After all "only 3-4 minutes will be lost. It's not like this is a FAST train.... "
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Old December 11th, 2009, 01:01 PM   #186
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Well, it may stop every 100 km but it should decelerate and accelerate fast!
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Old December 11th, 2009, 02:31 PM   #187
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Quote:
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make that Glasgow-Ankara

Well, I used a flight mileage calculator to calculate that route...works out to about 3500km...assuming that rail is not as straight-going as a flight, let's say 4200km.

At a total average speed of 200-220kph (I don't think we'll see more than that for at least 50 years), it would work out as about 20 hours, Glasgow-Ankara (Assuming of course no gaps between trains, so let's say it would be an ideal 24-30 hours)

edit: For some perspective, it looks like Glasgow-Ankara currently takes about 108 hours...so it would be quite an improvement!

Last edited by v_florin; December 11th, 2009 at 02:37 PM.
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Old December 11th, 2009, 02:46 PM   #188
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Well, I used a flight mileage calculator to calculate that route...works out to about 3500km...assuming that rail is not as straight-going as a flight, let's say 4200km.

At a total average speed of 200-220kph (I don't think we'll see more than that for at least 50 years), it would work out as about 20 hours, Glasgow-Ankara (Assuming of course no gaps between trains, so let's say it would be an ideal 24-30 hours)

edit: For some perspective, it looks like Glasgow-Ankara currently takes about 108 hours...so it would be quite an improvement!
it would be about 4000 kms, not much more than that
at an average of 300 it would be 13 hrs
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Old December 11th, 2009, 09:56 PM   #189
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it would be about 4000 kms, not much more than that
at an average of 300 it would be 13 hrs
Or you could fly in less than two hours....

Great project for Stuttgart. I took the train through there 15 years ago and the station was a dump. I'm sure it hasnt improved with age....
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Old December 11th, 2009, 10:18 PM   #190
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Or you could fly in less than two hours....

Great project for Stuttgart. I took the train through there 15 years ago and the station was a dump. I'm sure it hasnt improved with age....
as opposed to, say, Detroit Hbf.?
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Old December 11th, 2009, 10:22 PM   #191
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Great!
I know Stuttgart 21 is more than just controversial but I think it will be a huge improvement and a great addition to the axis Paris-Bratislava as envisioned by the transeuropean networks plan.

Alone the creation of that tunnel and the new railway station should save a lot of of time.

I know that the speeds of the line to Ulm are a bit disappointing, but in Austria we are not used to anything better anyway At least the connection Vienna-Munich should be possible within 3 hours in the not too far away future. An average speed of roughly 100 kmph is hardly what you would consider high speed, but it would be still at least an hour less than before...

and then you have the new main railwaystation of Vienna which is going to be constructed in the next years (in 2012-13 the first part should start to operate). This alone could cut the time of a train crossing Vienna coming from Bratislava or Budapest, or Prague by maybe even half an hour?
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Old December 12th, 2009, 04:46 AM   #192
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How come you Austrians haven't invested much in HSR?
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Old December 12th, 2009, 10:41 AM   #193
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Mountains?

Anyway there are some mixed traffic 230 km/h lines under construction or planning, the Vienna-Salzburg and Vienna-Villach lines (however not everywhere for 230 km/h).
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Old December 12th, 2009, 10:46 AM   #194
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Originally Posted by czm3 View Post
Or you could fly in less than two hours....
...at a much cheaper price. No point for such long distance high speed rail.


Anyway, I am happy that S21 finally goes ahead. It was about time that west Germany gets some serious investments in its ifrastructure and not only east-Germany.
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Old December 12th, 2009, 05:01 PM   #195
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...at a much cheaper price. No point for such long distance high speed rail.
I'm not sure you realize, that within a few years, there will be an almost continuous line from Lisbon/Seville/Malaga-Cordoba-Madrid all the way through Zaragoza-Barcelona-Avignon-Lyon-Paris to London / Brussel-Amsterdam

granted, there will be a gap in downtown Barcelona (although it is an uninterrupted tunnel) and the channel tunnel will be only 160 kph and there is also a gap in between Brussel-Antwerp

but even so, the train will be able to go theoretically non-stop at max speed from Lisbon to Barcelona and from Barcelona to the entrance of the Chunnel or Brussel

I am not saying that we should skip every major town, but between the major towns we should build 300-360
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Old December 13th, 2009, 12:23 PM   #196
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...at a much cheaper price. No point for such long distance high speed rail.
Do not overidealize flying. First of all, a flight Frankfurt - Istanbul takes almost 3 hours. Plus you must add the time it takes to get there from downtown, and get from your arrival airport to civilization again. Plus some time for check-in, security controls, baggage claim etc. Furthermore, in the time of climate change, we must hope that someday the tax privileges for air flight and private cars will be cancelled and climate-friendly rail and bus services privileged instead. If low cost environmental-hazardous flights continue at the present rate, then of course any rail connection beyond a 3-5 hours radius would be meaningless.
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Old December 14th, 2009, 07:09 AM   #197
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as opposed to, say, Detroit Hbf.?
Dont know what youre trying to say, but the fact that Detroit is a shithole has no bearing on the fact that Stuttgart HBF was in desperate need of an upgrade. On that same note, I'm certain that the new terminal at DTW is better than anything Stuttgart has to offer...

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Do not overidealize flying. First of all, a flight Frankfurt - Istanbul takes almost 3 hours. Plus you must add the time it takes to get there from downtown, and get from your arrival airport to civilization again. Plus some time for check-in, security controls, baggage claim etc. Furthermore, in the time of climate change, we must hope that someday the tax privileges for air flight and private cars will be cancelled and climate-friendly rail and bus services privileged instead. If low cost environmental-hazardous flights continue at the present rate, then of course any rail connection beyond a 3-5 hours radius would be meaningless.
Ok but a three hour flight plus an hour of check in and security does not take longer than a 13 hour train ride. I'm a big fan of HSR, but at longer distances, it becomes useless. Amsterdam -> Paris, train rules, but from the UK to Turkey? Come on now....
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Old December 14th, 2009, 11:03 AM   #198
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Originally Posted by czm3 View Post
Dont know what youre trying to say, but the fact that Detroit is a shithole has no bearing on the fact that Stuttgart HBF was in desperate need of an upgrade. On that same note, I'm certain that the new terminal at DTW is better than anything Stuttgart has to offer...



Ok but a three hour flight plus an hour of check in and security does not take longer than a 13 hour train ride. I'm a big fan of HSR, but at longer distances, it becomes useless. Amsterdam -> Paris, train rules, but from the UK to Turkey? Come on now....
It's not so far-fetched...it takes an hour to get to most London-area airports+2 hours for check-in+4 hour flight (UK-Turkey)+0.5-1 hour from Turkish airport to city center. This results in almost 8 hours real time compared to 13...yes, the train will definitely cost more over such a huge distance, but the time difference would be quite negligible - 8 or 13 hours are both pretty much 1 day or 1 night travel time.
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Old December 14th, 2009, 01:09 PM   #199
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I think once the TEN corridors have become a bit more firmly entrenched (which is another way to say, when the Alpine corridors have been drilled and when the Germans and Austrians finally shift their a**es and start building rather than renovating...) then we'll see a new generation of trains catering largely to business people. By this I mean, fast trans-border trains equipped with business centres, television news services, meeting rooms, etc.

Your little calculation, v_florin, half-convinced me: to go on vacation or mini-break across Europe I'd still prefer the 3-4 hour flight to a 12 hour train ride. However, if I have work to do then I might well prefer the train. For those of us who work in an office one thing is certain: a short to medium-duration flight totally smashes one working day. When flying, all the time there's something to attend to: to the airport, check in, security control, boarding, transfer.... Once one is seated in a train one is at ease and "in the office".
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Old December 14th, 2009, 04:38 PM   #200
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Dont know what youre trying to say, but the fact that Detroit is a shithole has no bearing on the fact that Stuttgart HBF was in desperate need of an upgrade. On that same note, I'm certain that the new terminal at DTW is better than anything Stuttgart has to offer...
That's rich. How about comparing Detroit airport to a city of that size here. Like, erm München. Or Frankfurt.... both of these have better airports..

and take a look at a Stuttgart size city in Michigan, that is, before everyone fled because they closed all the factories..


Quote:
Ok but a three hour flight plus an hour of check in and security does not take longer than a 13 hour train ride. I'm a big fan of HSR, but at longer distances, it becomes useless. Amsterdam -> Paris, train rules, but from the UK to Turkey? Come on now....
IF a line like that existed, most people would use it for shorter distances

it wouldn't be only people travelling from turkey to the uk
think about all the possible connections
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