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Old April 21st, 2014, 11:52 PM   #2121
Sunfuns
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Exactly, for a train to be competitive on long routes like that with those travellers who value time the most you'd need full high speed line which you decided not to build for various reasons. Berlin-Cologne with stops in Hanover and Dortmund could easily be under 3 hours...
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Old April 21st, 2014, 11:55 PM   #2122
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So DB might think of investing in more ICE Sprinter services, that can win on time.

(Now if they had built Transrapid...)
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 04:48 AM   #2123
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What about RB services? How is it doing these days?
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:25 AM   #2124
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Exactly, for a train to be competitive on long routes like that with those travellers who value time the most you'd need full high speed line which you decided not to build for various reasons. Berlin-Cologne with stops in Hanover and Dortmund could easily be under 3 hours...
What is often overlooked is that the Germany of now is not the Germany that built the first ICE lines...
If the reunification had come earlier, (or there had never been a partition) the Hannover - Würzburg line would never have been built for example.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:33 AM   #2125
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Madrid - Seville for example. Nevertheless it should be true for 95% of cities between which AVEs run. You can google coach schedules yourself.

In Germany the coach market is developing quickly. Just search www.busliniensuche.de for connections between any given two cities to compare coaches with train schedules from bahn.de. E.g. I found 7 coaches and 24 trains between Hamburg and Munich for tomorrow. The train is at least double the price of the most expensive coach.
If it's true for 95% then why can't you give me any more examples? Are you going to answer my first two questions or continue to ignore them?

Train prices are always more expensive than the bus. Especially when booking so close to your date of travel. Now, what are these Germany cities that don't have decent rail connections that you mentioned before?

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Old April 22nd, 2014, 01:24 PM   #2126
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What is often overlooked is that the Germany of now is not the Germany that built the first ICE lines...
If the reunification had come earlier, (or there had never been a partition) the Hannover - Würzburg line would never have been built for example.
A HSL on a similar route would have been built nonetheless.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 03:28 PM   #2127
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A maglev network would have solved part of these problems. IT would allow a 90-100 min travel time between Frankfurt and Munchen
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:39 PM   #2128
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If it's true for 95% then why can't you give me any more examples?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=autobus+madrid+sevilla
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:42 PM   #2129
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Now, what are these Germany cities that don't have decent rail connections that you mentioned before?
Freiburg to the East, Heilbronn in general, Berchtesgaden, Kempten, Friedrichshafen, Ravensburg, Tübingen, Aalen, Konstanz come to mind. There are probably plenty of others.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 09:55 PM   #2130
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It is not true. Airlines are faster, even if you measure it point to point (e.g. Berlin Alexanderplatz to Munich Theresienwiese). And there are lots of domestic flights in Germany. E.g. from Cologne to Berlin, tomorrow, Air Berlin has 9 flights, Germanwings has 11 flights.
Don't be cute. Of course I meant compared to bus only. As suburbanist says, as Germans never opted to create a border to border true HSL like in France or Spain, flights will always win a downtown to downtown competition in Germany over 300 km,provided of course that the towns have a well-serviced airport.

As for towns off the German-style HS-grid where buses can catch up fairly easily speedwise, Thun has mentioned those in the south of the country. Trier, Oldenburg, Rostock, Stralsund, and even Dresden come to my mind. In each case, the metropolites in our forum might argue "who cares?" but when you add up all those small to medium-size towns, you will find a sizable part of the population there and obviously for them flying is not much of an option.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 11:10 PM   #2131
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Any news of improvements between Berlin and Dresden? It is rather slow.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 11:20 PM   #2132
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I ask you a genuine question as you seem to be knowledgeable about the subject and this is your reply. Obviously I was well wide of the mark.
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Old April 22nd, 2014, 11:37 PM   #2133
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Freiburg to the East, Heilbronn in general, Berchtesgaden, Kempten, Friedrichshafen, Ravensburg, Tübingen, Aalen, Konstanz come to mind. There are probably plenty of others.
With the exception of Berchtesgarden (pop 7.662), all the rest have very decent rail connections.

Anyway its fairly obvious that you can't back up anything you've posted about coach travel so I'll bow out of this discussion as I'm obviously wasting my time.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 11:36 AM   #2134
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Fatfield, we are not saying they are cut off from raillines or have a single service a day. It is if you compare them with Freiburg north to south, Leipzig, bielefeld or Göttingen, you will see that it takes a lot longer to get there and there is little motivation for car drivers or bus passengers to abandon their mode of transport and take the train, as with max speeds of around 120 kmh, the train will not be faster.
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Any news of improvements between Berlin and Dresden? It is rather slow.
Last month the Minstry of Transport announced it would invest into 120 km of the route in order to improve speeds to 200 kmh by 2018 and reduce traveling time to 106 minutes from Berlin Hbf to Dresden Hbf. Ironically this is just two minutes faster than the speed the line briefly achieved (108 minutes from what is now Berlin Ostbahnhof) in 1994 and still short of the 100 minutes that were possible in 1938 from Anhalter Bahnhof in Berlin.
Concerning the portion of the line that is on Berlin soil Deutsche Bahn has recently implied that it might give in to the NIMBY protests that demand a tunnel for the line when passing through the southern suburbs. This will swallow a nine digit amount of Euros additionally and take years for replanning, but the Berlin mayor had been adamant in supporting the NIMBYs from his constituency.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 01:27 PM   #2135
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I think what compromises speed in many German travel relations is not much the state of tracks themselves, but the outdated layouts of junctions and station approaches. For instance, the new Köln-Frankfurt high speed line is very efficient getting trains there, but then they crawl slowly through the final approach and the bizarre layout of Koln-Deutz.

Frakfurt Hbf. is also very messy with a complicated approach and its terminal layout. They need something new, mostly in tunnels, like 4 tracks connecting Frankfurt Hbf. to Hanau in a direct alignment. More flyovers are needed on the western (and currently only) approach to the station as well.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 01:43 PM   #2136
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Exactly the point I intended to make in the Dutch thread. In order to travel quicker, instead of concentrating on going faster, you should work on not travelling slow first. Despite low top speeds in the order of 130 km/h, Japanese Limited Expresses still achieve average speeds we in Europe can only dream of.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 02:12 PM   #2137
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Exactly the point I intended to make in the Dutch thread. In order to travel quicker, instead of concentrating on going faster, you should work on not travelling slow first. Despite low top speeds in the order of 130 km/h, Japanese Limited Expresses still achieve average speeds we in Europe can only dream of.
This are not mutually exclusive. New high-speed lines improve service. The old railway lines along the river between Frankfurt and Koln were a shame in terms of design and speed, for instance, no matter how much tilting you put there.

Money should be spent to capitalize other major investments. It is a common mistake made by many European countries that invest in high-speed rail: billions are rightfully spent in brand new lines, as they should. Then, they don't spend a smaller sum of money needed to better connect the high-speed lines with stations.

This would be like building a brand-new 2x3 highway with the latest carriageway design, all sorts of VMS panels, drainage pavement, noise barriers and then be over-thrifty when it comes to build proper junctions that feed such highway, option for roundabouts instead.

Frankfurt and Koln could also vastly improve the situation if Frankfurt Sud was expanded to accommodate Hbf. traffic, leaving Hfb. as a station where only trains terminating or originating there stop. That would be a temporary alternative is a major tunnel-railway to Hanaus is too costly for the time being. Frankfurt Sud is directly connected with the inner city by a short subway hop on the U-Bahn.

The Berlin experience shows that you can move the location of the major city station around without losing passengers.
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 03:42 PM   #2138
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I wouldn't say Deutz has a bizarre layout; in fact it's pretty straightforward, both to Hbf and to the lower level. The latter will be improved with grade separation.
It could be hardly more straight than now...

Frankfurt is time wasting because of the terminal station, not for the change of direction itself but because the train has to double the (pretty complicated) route into the city.

I think a tunnel would be nice, but... €€€

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The Berlin experience shows that you can move the location of the major city station around without losing passengers.
Frankfurt is not divided in two parts, with a strip of desert in the middle...
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Old April 23rd, 2014, 06:51 PM   #2139
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Frankfurt and Koln could also vastly improve the situation if Frankfurt Sud was expanded to accommodate Hbf. traffic, leaving Hfb. as a station where only trains terminating or originating there stop.
Frankfurt Flughafen is a better candidate, in fact it already serves as a high speed hub.
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Old April 26th, 2014, 03:02 PM   #2140
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No way. Neither Flughafen nor Frankfurt Süd can serve as Frankfurt's main ICE station. Both cannot be expanded anymore (which would be needed if you want to shift additional stops to there) and the connection to local and regional trains is very limited (especially at the Airport) in comparison with the main station. You might improve travel times through Frankfurt by two minutes, but this would come with severe other problems (capacity, connectivity, reliability etc).
Anyways I don't see any reason why anyone should just think about it this time since Frankfurt is by far Germany's most important traffic hub, including long distance / high speed rail - most passengers of long distance trains stopping in Frankfurt are changing trains there. The next decades Germany still can (and must) spend hundreds of billions for new HSLs and bypasses of dozens of other towns and even cities before even start thinking of relocating Frankfurt Hbf. In fact, the only feasible long term solution there would be a tunnel between main station and the eastern city limit.

Things (travel times too) will improve when all these urgently needed rail projects already planned with costs of ~1 billion in and around Frankfurt are completed. In this case its namely reorganizing the approach to Hauptbahnhof especially for long distance trains, including upgrading Hauptbahnhof - Stadion from 4 to 6 (the 2 new tracks will be dedicated to long distance trains, though due to natural constraints in urban environment not enabling too high speeds for these ~six kilometers), upgrading Südbahnhof - Hauptbahnhof from 2 to 4 tracks and widening the 'Main-Neckar-Auffahrt' (the 4 tracks ramp just next to Hauptbahnhof between the station itself and the river Main). All these will come with several flying junctions. These projects will enable smoother traffic flows with less change of tracks, less jamming and partly higher speeds, too.
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Last edited by Rohne; April 26th, 2014 at 03:43 PM.
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