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Old December 14th, 2009, 04:59 PM   #201
Baron Hirsch
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
IF a line like that existed, most people would use it for shorter distances it wouldn't be only people travelling from turkey to the uk think about all the possible connections
The problem with international highspeed in Europe is it got off to a wrong start: the state railway operators founded outsourced companies such as Eurostar, Thalys or the late Cisalpino for these lines and founded seperate ticketing systems, and in part platforms and did not coordinate any train correspondences. This is pretty much how the split up corridor London-Berlin works at the moment: one train to Brussels, change plattform, do border formalities, wait endlessly. Then go Brussels-Cologne, wait again, change again, then you do Cologne-Berlin. Because of the split up ticketing from three different companies, the final price is usually horrendous.
They forgot that the great advantage of railways is that they are a network, which has been rediscovered for the Paris-Frankfurt and Paris-Munich cooperation of SNCF and DB. Not many people boarding a Munich-Paris train will do the whole route, but you will still have more passengers than if there was a seperate train for Munich-Stuttgart, Stuttgart-Strasbourg, and Strasbourg-Paris.Another thing which will make sense once there are longer highspeed routes is highspeed night trains, which according to my knowledge are only envisaged in China so far.
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Old December 14th, 2009, 05:03 PM   #202
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That's rich. How about comparing Detroit airport to a city of that size here. Like, erm München. Or Frankfurt.... both of these have better airports.
whatever you say, you're the one that brought detroit into this discussion in the first place. Honestly I don't know why or where you were going with that. However your lack of responce to my initial point says to me that you agree with me that Stuttgart hbf is a dump and was in desparate need of an upgrade.

I agree with the second part of your post though...
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Old December 14th, 2009, 08:52 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
The problem with international highspeed in Europe is it got off to a wrong start: the state railway operators founded outsourced companies such as Eurostar, Thalys or the late Cisalpino for these lines and founded seperate ticketing systems, and in part platforms and did not coordinate any train correspondences. This is pretty much how the split up corridor London-Berlin works at the moment: one train to Brussels, change plattform, do border formalities, wait endlessly. Then go Brussels-Cologne, wait again, change again, then you do Cologne-Berlin. Because of the split up ticketing from three different companies, the final price is usually horrendous.
I half agree and half disagree with your position, Baron. To test your position I went on the SNCF Voyages site and checked out the price and availability of throughfare tickets from London to Berlin. Such tickets can be bought and the price is not, to my mind, horrendous. The cost is 194 Euros for a single fare - which is more than you pay with low-cost airlines, certainly, but not more than you pay with the flag carriers. That said...

...it is of course true that one has to change trains on a couple of occasions. I speculate that one reason for this is that the duration of the trip (9 1/2 hours) is such that no one operator has been inclined to offer point-to-point services on the route. Maybe it has also been held back by protectionism in individual countries. In that case things should start changing in 2011 with the new EU rules on third-party access.

I would also agree that the passport and security measures around Eurostar are a disgrace. I can say this, with my head held high, as a Dane because the opening of the cross-border link between Denmark and Sweden was accompanied by a decision to abstain from all controls in the interest of keeping the traffic flowing as any local train line in any of the two countries. In the words of the then Danish Minister of Justice, "of course we lose the protections of border controls. But, in the interest of fraternity, who cares if a criminal is in Stockholm or Copenhagen?" Well.... let's just say the Brits, with their insular mentality, have not yet quite aspired to this level of Renaissance thinking.
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Old December 16th, 2009, 01:28 AM   #204
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Am I the only one who doesn't like the architecture, or is it not an object of conversation here?

It looks horrible. And no, it will not get better with time.

Have all the lessons from 1970's "crack architecture" been lost? What looks ultra cool today looks like, crap tomorrow?

I understand the arguments about moving the station's direction, and it's an important argument. But seeing these visualisations makes me wonder who's been sniffing the white stuff again.
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Old December 16th, 2009, 12:45 PM   #205
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Time will tell, but I doubt today's neo-Jetson architecture will be as badly received in the future as 1970s architecture. The post-war motto was "build it fast and build it cheap," and it was the only period in the past few centuries when people disliked things like atria and worthwhile things. The '60s and '70s were an extreme anomaly. The failure of their attempts shouldn't stop us from being ingenuous and progressive.

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I would also agree that the passport and security measures around Eurostar are a disgrace. I can say this, with my head held high, as a Dane because the opening of the cross-border link between Denmark and Sweden was accompanied by a decision to abstain from all controls in the interest of keeping the traffic flowing as any local train line in any of the two countries. In the words of the then Danish Minister of Justice, "of course we lose the protections of border controls. But, in the interest of fraternity, who cares if a criminal is in Stockholm or Copenhagen?" Well.... let's just say the Brits, with their insular mentality, have not yet quite aspired to this level of Renaissance thinking.
I think you summed that up rather nicely.
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Old December 18th, 2009, 02:38 AM   #206
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It's not so far-fetched...it takes an hour to get to most London-area airports+2 hours for check-in+4 hour flight (UK-Turkey)+0.5-1 hour from Turkish airport to city center. This results in almost 8 hours real time compared to 13...yes, the train will definitely cost more over such a huge distance, but the time difference would be quite negligible - 8 or 13 hours are both pretty much 1 day or 1 night travel time.

In Frankfurt it takes me 20 minutes from the city centre to the airport (10 minutes to central station). Check in time is generally an hour for domestic/european flights and 2 hours for intercontinental flights. And keep in mind, that not everybody wan't to go to city centre. Most people live in the suburbs which are better connected (by motorway) to the aiport than to the central station.

London is an extreme case and not the norm.
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Old December 21st, 2009, 05:51 PM   #207
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I half agree and half disagree with your position, Baron. To test your position I went on the SNCF Voyages site and checked out the price and availability of throughfare tickets from London to Berlin. Such tickets can be bought and the price is not, to my mind, horrendous. The cost is 194 Euros for a single fare - which is more than you pay with low-cost airlines, certainly, but not more than you pay with the flag carriers. That said...

...it is of course true that one has to change trains on a couple of occasions. I speculate that one reason for this is that the duration of the trip (9 1/2 hours) is such that no one operator has been inclined to offer point-to-point services on the route. Maybe it has also been held back by protectionism in individual countries. In that case things should start changing in 2011 with the new EU rules on third-party access.

I would also agree that the passport and security measures around Eurostar are a disgrace. I can say this, with my head held high, as a Dane because the opening of the cross-border link between Denmark and Sweden was accompanied by a decision to abstain from all controls in the interest of keeping the traffic flowing as any local train line in any of the two countries. In the words of the then Danish Minister of Justice, "of course we lose the protections of border controls. But, in the interest of fraternity, who cares if a criminal is in Stockholm or Copenhagen?" Well.... let's just say the Brits, with their insular mentality, have not yet quite aspired to this level of Renaissance thinking.
Sorry, a bit late answering this days. Concerning the prices: DB offers train rides anywhere in Germany to London starting at a really affordable 49 Euros. Problem is you have to use an ICE and not a Thalys between Cologne and Brussels, onl 2 operating per day in comparison to much more frequent Thalys (and DB even has a 10% share in Thalys).
Protectionism is definitely involved. DB wanted to buy shares of Eurostar, but this caused an uproar and SNCF bought the free shares to prevent this.
Even if we have to live with GB isolating itself from Schengen, there could be other possibilities. For ex, before Czech Rep. joined Schengen, on the Dresden-Prague route, border police from both countries entered the train in Dresden, half an hour before the border and had enough time to drag out anybody before the short stop at the border or if need be force them to take the nect train back. Of course these were 99% not criminals, but hapless tourists which did not understand the European visa landscape.
It would be great if someday Thalys would be extended into Germany beyond Cologne (they claim they do not have the capacity for this at the moment) and ICE rides to London. Since SNCF has said it wants to serve the Frankfurt-Berlin route, I am sure this will stur up DB to bugger in on WestEuropean routes, as their trains are generally more popular than the TGV style ones.
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Old December 21st, 2009, 08:40 PM   #208
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In Frankfurt it takes me 20 minutes from the city centre to the airport (10 minutes to central station). Check in time is generally an hour for domestic/european flights and 2 hours for intercontinental flights. And keep in mind, that not everybody wan't to go to city centre. Most people live in the suburbs which are better connected (by motorway) to the aiport than to the central station.

London is an extreme case and not the norm.
In Vienna most people live in the city proper and the new main station is certainly a lot better located to serve all parts of the city than the airport which is located in Schwechat. But then there is no real high speed rail here, which is a pity. Such a thing would be great between Vienna and Budapest or Vienna and Prague. The only thing which is immanent is that travel times between Vienna and Munich are going to fall from 4 hours to 3 hours. Thats hardly high speed either, even if it means that large parts are ready for 200 kmph.

My own experience with Frankfurt is that it can take ages only to get from one part of the airport to another one and as I consider missing a plane far worse than missing a train I tend to calculate in a lot of additional time as you never know. Traffic jam, chaos at the airport... the number of possible scenarios is nearly endless.

So, if I had the option between a flight and a train trip that takes 2-3 hours longer I would still take the train and feel pretty confident to have not wasted time at all.
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Old December 22nd, 2009, 06:12 PM   #209
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Sorry, a bit late answering this days. Concerning the prices: DB offers train rides anywhere in Germany to London starting at a really affordable 49 Euros. Problem is you have to use an ICE and not a Thalys between Cologne and Brussels, onl 2 operating per day in comparison to much more frequent Thalys (and DB even has a 10% share in Thalys).
DB runs three not two pairs of trains between Frankfurt/M and Bruxelles. It's still a rather infrequent service but enough to take advantage of special ticket offers.
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Old December 23rd, 2009, 10:06 AM   #210
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I just read on the website of DMM that ICE trains have been technically cleared to use the Channel tunnel. Earlier restrictions on the grounds that ICE's are not as fireproof as TGV's have been scratched. Let's see if this will actually lead to more competition in the business...
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Am I the only one who doesn't like the architecture, or is it not an object of conversation here?

It looks horrible. And no, it will not get better with time.
From the experience with the Berlin underground train stationsI can tell you that the first thing people will save on is appearance. So since everyone is so worried about the price of S21, they will do the same as for Berlin Hauptbahnhof, scratch the fancy roof structure and make it look like any underground tunnel with naked heavy concrete. Maybe in the case of S21, that would be an improvement... Oh and the thing with natural sunlight flooding into the underground station, that is a nice story the engineers always tell, but never works, judging from the gloomy Potrsdamer Platz station.
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Old December 24th, 2009, 12:09 AM   #211
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Oh and the thing with natural sunlight flooding into the underground station, that is a nice story the engineers always tell, but never works, judging from the gloomy Potrsdamer Platz station.
That's a bloody insult! It works very well with the new metro stations in Copenhagen. Well... that is, it WOULD work very well if there ever was any natural sunlight in our country.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 08:54 AM   #212
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Was the now-cancelled Frankfurt 21 project similar to Stuttgart 21? And are there any other railprojects with the number 21? Also, what does "21" mean, anyway?
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Old January 25th, 2010, 10:38 AM   #213
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Old January 25th, 2010, 11:09 AM   #214
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My more fundamental problem is an element of the German psyche which seems to make true high-speed virtually impossible: any medium sized city shall be, and remain, connected to the main network. - And not only that but through the old railway station in the city centre. It's very unlike, for example, in France where people have the same attitude to HS rail as they have to Autoroutes: they should pass reasonably close by the main cities, but they should never, ever run through the urban environment.

Given that the train between Stuttgart and Munich must, imperatively, run through the "Altstadt" of Ulm and Augsburg with speeds probably not exceeding 100 km/h there's not much point in investing in 300+ km/h between the towns. Afterward can then the "Town Kings" of these medium-sized cities use the low speed as an argument that each ICE must, imperatively, stop in their town. After all "only 3-4 minutes will be lost. It's not like this is a FAST train.... "
Actually the German aproach is in many ways superior to the French (and the French appraoch is in any ways not suitable to a country as densily populated as Germany).
The improvements in trains speeds might be less impressive, but the improvements in travel speed for a large amount of passengers are. By running HSTs "reasonable close" to urban areas, but not through them you add extra trasfer time costs to the total trip. In France much of the time gain on the TGV is sometimes lost at the first transfer one must make to get to the final destination. The French TGV is a great ground level airline, but it's not that great a public transport network. I prefer the DB approach.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 06:32 PM   #215
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The improvements in trains speeds might be less impressive, but the improvements in travel speed for a large amount of passengers are. By running HSTs "reasonable close" to urban areas, but not through them you add extra trasfer time costs to the total trip. In France much of the time gain on the TGV is sometimes lost at the first transfer one must make to get to the final destination.
I think you mix facts with fiction. By "fiction" I mean a superimposition of the transport patterns you have seen in German unto a French reality. However, the realities are different. If the TGVs ran like the ICEs, through the country with 6-10 stops, then we would have the problem you describe. But that is normally not the case. If there is a need for more than 3 stops on a certain route then two trains are used. One stops here, another stops there. The best example is the Thalys trains Paris-Brussels. Not ONE SINGLE of them stops in, or at, Lille - a town the size of Cologne. Because... there are other trains for that.

They call this a point-to-point concept, and it is feasible because the French network is incredibly monocentric. Only a tiny fraction of middle- to long-distance train travels in France involve changing trains.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 07:07 PM   #216
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Was the now-cancelled Frankfurt 21 project similar to Stuttgart 21? And are there any other railprojects with the number 21? Also, what does "21" mean, anyway?
Sure, there is for instance Neu-Ulm 21. This project comprised lowering the whole railway line as well as a complete remodelling of the station.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 07:32 PM   #217
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There have been propositions for Frankfurt 21 and München 21, too. Both would have meant to build underground pass-through stations instead of the current dead end ones. But only Stuttgart 21 went into a somehow advanced phase of planning though.


@ hans21: Besides of the higher population density in Germany, you realise that Germanys rail network is comletely different from France's, don't you? The main difference is that Germany has a rail "net", which means that there are lots of hubs in medium or small citys connecting whole regions to the "core lines" (Augsburg and Ulm are great examples, everyone who lives south of these cities uses these two stations to jump on the ICE). In order to provide decent connections for these people, it makes sense to have regular stops for ICE trains to allow cross-connections. In France instead, where the whole rail system and traffic volume is orientated to Paris, you have far less hubs and it makes much more sense to have less stops and buildt dedicated HSR stations in the middle of nowhere to speed up trains.
Another effect of it is that passenger amounts in Germany spread on different lines and there aren't many main corridors with such a high amount of passengers like e. g. Lyon-Paris or Madrid-Barcelona. Therefore, in Germany building a massive HSL in lots of cases isn't justified. Finally, I would say that in Germany it needs easily 20 years or more to build a HSL (or motorway) from scratch because of legal restrictions, etc.. Upgrating the existing line is way more easier.

In the case of Stuttgart - Munich, the planned upgrate makes sense to me: a new line between Stuttgart and Ulm which takes long-distance traffic from the old lines (it has a top speed of 70km/h on some stretches and freight trains need extra locomotives to push up on the Alb mountains) on the stretch where it really means massive cuttings in travel time and upgrating the rest where - because of the needed stops in Ulm and Augsburg and the protected environment on the west of Augsburg - a new line wouldn't make much sense.
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Old January 25th, 2010, 07:42 PM   #218
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I think you mix facts with fiction. By "fiction" I mean a superimposition of the transport patterns you have seen in German unto a French reality. However, the realities are different. If the TGVs ran like the ICEs, through the country with 6-10 stops, then we would have the problem you describe.
Repeat again what "problem" we would, according to me, have if the TGVs ran as a network? I don't remembering claiming anything like that...

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But that is normally not the case. If there is a need for more than 3 stops on a certain route then two trains are used. One stops here, another stops there. The best example is the Thalys trains Paris-Brussels. Not ONE SINGLE of them stops in, or at, Lille - a town the size of Cologne. Because... there are other trains for that.
Thalys is indeed a good example. Convenient travel from Belgium to anywhere else in France but Paris and Lille has more or less disappeared. From Brussel to any French place in between Brussel and Paris you now need more time than you needed before...
It's the same between Paris and Strassbourg. Paris - Strassbourg is now faster, but most other places in the French northeast now have less long distance trains than before. The result is that speed gains are less than great for a lot of people.

The problem with a different train for every market is that it reduces the number of available options to the traveller.
If you have a train doing A - B - D and another doing A - C -D, you end up with two train services, and still no way to get from B to C...

And when the trains that are offered are badly coordinated you get the situation that you win an hour on Geneva - Avignon because of the TGV, and then lose it again because in Avignon you have to transfer from one station to another first, and then wait over an hour for a regional service to your final destination. The value of a well coordinated network is proportional to the square of the points it connects. The SNCF has decided to forgo that advantage...

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They call this a point-to-point concept, and it is feasible because the French network is incredibly monocentric. Only a tiny fraction of middle- to long-distance train travels in France involve changing trains.
Indeed, and the SNCF refuses to even suggest trips on its website with more than two changes, which means that there are station pairs within the SNCF network that they will not sell you tickets for. But the result is not as userfriendly as a true network is. From Switzerland to almost any place in Germany I have a connection every hour, or every two hours, nicely spaced. To places France I often have only one practical connection, or even none at all, even when the place has a railway station...
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Old January 25th, 2010, 09:06 PM   #219
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Repeat again what "problem" we would, according to me, have if the TGVs ran as a network? I don't remembering claiming anything like that....
The "problem" is that a TGV train loses almost 10 minutes each time it stops. In my book HS is for people who travel at least 400 km without change of train. It is unfair to these people to stop the train once every 100 km. (Yes, I know... you'll now be telling me "my book" is unprintable...)

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Thalys is indeed a good example. Convenient travel from Belgium to anywhere else in France but Paris and Lille has more or less disappeared. From Brussel to any French place in between Brussel and Paris you now need more time than you needed before...
I don't think that's true. You have connections doing Brussels-Lille in 35 minutes. Since the Northern French connections from Lille to the surroundings have - to my knowledge - not been cut back the opening of the new line to Brussels must have improved connections, if perhaps not DIRECT connections, between the Belgian capital and northern France.
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Old January 26th, 2010, 01:29 AM   #220
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[…]
The best example is the Thalys trains Paris-Brussels. Not ONE SINGLE of them stops in, or at, Lille - a town the size of Cologne. Because... there are other trains for that.
[…]
City of Lille: approx. 225 000 inhabitants.
Agglomeration Lille: 1 Million inhabitants.

City of Cologne: 1 Million inhabitants.
Agglomeration Cologne: More than 3 Million inhabitants.
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