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Old June 6th, 2014, 08:44 PM   #2201
LtBk
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What are the current projects underway on German rail network?
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Old June 7th, 2014, 12:05 PM   #2202
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No Maniei, you're wrong.

A pure freight line definetely would not solve all issues. Travel times for ICEs there aren't competitive to car or plane, and there would not be any acceleration (on the contrary, those ICEs that shall stop in Darmstadt would be slowed down additionaly), significantly decreasing the value of the project. Most freigth trains causing capacity constraints on Darmstadt - Heidelberg are coming from the line Mainz - Aschaffenburg, north of Darmstadt only the Riedbahn is over capacity - and this one is mainly caused by having the tracks shared between ICEs operating up to 200kph on some sections, and regional trains with vmax of 160kph stopping nearly everywhere (there are only a few freight trains there, and these could easily share the tracks with regional trains because of their very similar speed profile).
Without relieving the Riedbahn from ICEs you cannot build an S-Bahn station at FRA Terminal 3, already planned additional trains (regional and S-Bahn, depending on which line they shall use, maybe even not additional ICEs) would not be possible, and the urgently needed 1 billion € project for resolving capacity constraints in and around Frankfurt would be obsolete, because one of its most important subprojects - building two additional tracks dedicated to long distance trains between Ffm Stadion and Hbf - would not have their continuation (which would exactly be the HSL we are talking about).
The HSL has a ratio of more than 1 (otherwise it would have been kicked out of the urgent demand), not taking into account the passengers related to air travel. There was a separate study about this kind of traffic whether it shall be included into the calculation of the BVWP projects. It came to the conclusion that taking this into account would increase the overall ratio of all projects from 2.0 to 2.1 - and there are dozens of projects which aren't related to air travel at all, so this increase was caused by a large increase of value of projects like especially Frankfurt - Mannheim.

You can turn it either way, you cannot solve all issues with only building 2 additional tracks. Best would be to build the 300kph line as planned, without a stop in Darmstadt, but with the bypass Mannheim (this one mainly for freigth trains, but also for those ICEs avoiding Mannheim which should mainly be an hourly line northern Germany - Frankfurt Hbf - Stuttgart (or further to München), Mannheim would not lose any connection to anywhere when the project leads to additional services as planned). The section between Weiterstadt and the beginning of the Mannheim bypass should have 4 tracks, with connections to the lines Mainz - Aschaffenburg and near Mannheim - Friedrichsfeld for freight trains. So that the project can be used by freight trains and ICEs together all day long without disturbing each other.

Your suggestion of building rather short HSLs here and there is completely the wrong way, and the main reason why ICE travel times for most relations are not really competitive. What Germany needs is a complete high speed network which bears its name with justification. Berlin - München is a nice project but with very limited value and the section Nürnberg - Erfurt will hardly be used because it cannot be used for trains serving different relations. Taking into account the potential of passengers and the grade of usage, Köln - Frankfurt - Stuttgart - München and Hamburg - Frankfurt - Basel are the lines that should be built and finished with utmost priority. And both of these have a gaping hole for high speed traffic in its best utilised central core: the not built projects Frankfurt - Mannheim and Frankfurt - Fulda!

RheinMain and RheinNeckar are merged already (Hessian district Bergstraße and the city of Worms are counted to both, Rhein-Neckar and Rhein-Main, in the US you would call that one a CSA with ~8 million inhabitants (nearly reaching the population of the Chicago CSA), which can but most not be split up into several subdivisions, called MSA - metropolitan statistical areas). Letting high speed trains stop in Darmstadt would be just the same as let them stop in Frankfurt-Süd (and before you comment on this one: all ICEs currently(!) stopping there are avoiding the crowded main station) or Offenbach, Fürth, Esslingen, Neu-Ulm, München-Karlsfeld or Dachau, ... - there are many good reasons not to do this. Absolutely the same with Darmstadt.
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Last edited by Rohne; June 7th, 2014 at 12:14 PM.
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Old June 7th, 2014, 12:43 PM   #2203
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From Rail Journal:

Quote:
http://www.railjournal.com/index.php...ml?channel=542

DB orders Bombardier locos for Sylt car shuttles
Friday, June 06, 2014



GERMAN Rail (DB) has awarded Bombardier a €27m contract to supply seven Traxx DE ME multi-engine diesel locomotives for use on DB Autozug SyltShuttle car trains, which link Niebüll with Westerland on the island of Sylt in the German state of Schleswig-Holstein.

The first two locomotives, which are classified class 245 by DB, will be delivered at the end of next year and they will completely displace class 218 diesel locomotives currently used on the shuttles by mid-2016. DB says a single class 245 will replace a pair of class 218s on these trains.

The Traxx DE ME is equipped with four 563kW Caterpillar C18 engines, which work simultaneously to offer a total continuous output of 2252kW. During shunting operations at Niebüll and Westerland the locomotives will operate using only one of the four engines, reducing fuel consumption and carbon emissions.

Earlier this year financial joint venture Paribus-DIF Netz West Lokomotiven ordered 15 Traxx DE MEs on behalf of Schleswig-Holstein State Transport Company (LVS) for use on regional passenger services between Hamburg and Westerland. These locomotives will also be delivered in 2015.

DB signed a framework deal with Bombardier in April 2011 for up to 200 Traxx DE ME locomotives, the first of which entered service on June 2 with DB Regio Allgäu-Schwaben on services from Munich to Kempten and Füssen
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Old June 7th, 2014, 01:28 PM   #2204
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This idea of "we need to always build projects serving the highest ridership" is misguided. Taken to extremes, it would mean all investments would go only towards commute/regional traffic, and long-distance travel (which in most countries has a much lower head count of daily passengers for obvious reasons) would merely be a trickle or regional trains than link up with each other, and a Frankfurt-Stuttgart trip would take 6 hours.
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Old June 7th, 2014, 08:00 PM   #2205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohne View Post
No Maniei, you're wrong.

A pure freight line definetely would not solve all issues. Travel times for ICEs there aren't competitive to car or plane, and there would not be any acceleration (on the contrary, those ICEs that shall stop in Darmstadt would be slowed down additionaly), significantly decreasing the value of the project. Most freigth trains causing capacity constraints on Darmstadt - Heidelberg are coming from the line Mainz - Aschaffenburg, north of Darmstadt only the Riedbahn is over capacity - and this one is mainly caused by having the tracks shared between ICEs operating up to 200kph on some sections, and regional trains with vmax of 160kph stopping nearly everywhere (there are only a few freight trains there, and these could easily share the tracks with regional trains because of their very similar speed profile).
Without relieving the Riedbahn from ICEs you cannot build an S-Bahn station at FRA Terminal 3, already planned additional trains (regional and S-Bahn, depending on which line they shall use, maybe even not additional ICEs) would not be possible, and the urgently needed 1 billion € project for resolving capacity constraints in and around Frankfurt would be obsolete, because one of its most important subprojects - building two additional tracks dedicated to long distance trains between Ffm Stadion and Hbf - would not have their continuation (which would exactly be the HSL we are talking about).
The HSL has a ratio of more than 1 (otherwise it would have been kicked out of the urgent demand), not taking into account the passengers related to air travel. There was a separate study about this kind of traffic whether it shall be included into the calculation of the BVWP projects. It came to the conclusion that taking this into account would increase the overall ratio of all projects from 2.0 to 2.1 - and there are dozens of projects which aren't related to air travel at all, so this increase was caused by a large increase of value of projects like especially Frankfurt - Mannheim.

You can turn it either way, you cannot solve all issues with only building 2 additional tracks. Best would be to build the 300kph line as planned, without a stop in Darmstadt, but with the bypass Mannheim (this one mainly for freigth trains, but also for those ICEs avoiding Mannheim which should mainly be an hourly line northern Germany - Frankfurt Hbf - Stuttgart (or further to München), Mannheim would not lose any connection to anywhere when the project leads to additional services as planned). The section between Weiterstadt and the beginning of the Mannheim bypass should have 4 tracks, with connections to the lines Mainz - Aschaffenburg and near Mannheim - Friedrichsfeld for freight trains. So that the project can be used by freight trains and ICEs together all day long without disturbing each other.

Your suggestion of building rather short HSLs here and there is completely the wrong way, and the main reason why ICE travel times for most relations are not really competitive. What Germany needs is a complete high speed network which bears its name with justification. Berlin - München is a nice project but with very limited value and the section Nürnberg - Erfurt will hardly be used because it cannot be used for trains serving different relations. Taking into account the potential of passengers and the grade of usage, Köln - Frankfurt - Stuttgart - München and Hamburg - Frankfurt - Basel are the lines that should be built and finished with utmost priority. And both of these have a gaping hole for high speed traffic in its best utilised central core: the not built projects Frankfurt - Mannheim and Frankfurt - Fulda!

RheinMain and RheinNeckar are merged already (Hessian district Bergstraße and the city of Worms are counted to both, Rhein-Neckar and Rhein-Main, in the US you would call that one a CSA with ~8 million inhabitants (nearly reaching the population of the Chicago CSA), which can but most not be split up into several subdivisions, called MSA - metropolitan statistical areas). Letting high speed trains stop in Darmstadt would be just the same as let them stop in Frankfurt-Süd (and before you comment on this one: all ICEs currently(!) stopping there are avoiding the crowded main station) or Offenbach, Fürth, Esslingen, Neu-Ulm, München-Karlsfeld or Dachau, ... - there are many good reasons not to do this. Absolutely the same with Darmstadt.
It seems like we are totally speaking past each other.

But first of all I apologize for a mistake. The cost/efficacy relation is not below one (I mixed that up with a tram project somewhere else). Last time it was at 1,2 in 2010 (though I have heard it decreased). Thats the analysis decisions will be based upon.

Main-Neckar Bahn is overcrowded today (>110%) and it will be overcrowded (>110%) despite a future HSR.
http://www.bmvi.de//cae/servlet/cont...chienen-de.pdf

With this new proposal pretty much all freight trains will be put on the new tracks (especially those coming from Mainz will switch to the new line north-western of Darmstadt).
Riedbahn will be freed by pretty much all ICEs and freight trains. It will be free for all kinds of short-distance trains.
Main-Neckar-Bahn will be freed of all freight trains, and will get pretty much all ICEs. This will still be a huge relief making both S-Bahn and RE Darmstadt-Mannheim possible.
(plus passenger trains can be overtaken much better than freight trains as they are mostly on time, which freight trains mostly are not).

Before we drag this endless discussion on, I want to ask you: What do you actually propose???

Building 4 tracks is not a solution!
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Old June 7th, 2014, 08:18 PM   #2206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maniei View Post
Main-Neckar-Bahn will be freed of all freight trains, and will get pretty much all ICEs. This will still be a huge relief making both S-Bahn and RE Darmstadt-Mannheim possible.
You seem to forget that the Köln-Rhein/Main high speed lines joins the Riedbahn and not the Main-Neckar line. And how feasible is it to move all high speed services to the latter when it is neither prepared for high speeds, has no link towards Köln nor does it serve Mannheim? You still haven't told us how high speed services are supposed to be sped up. Neither is it convincing to mix high speed service and local stopping service on the same line in an attempt to gain capacity. It just doesn't add up.

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Building 4 tracks is not a solution!
Quite the opposite. It's probably the best solution.
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Old June 7th, 2014, 09:42 PM   #2207
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Quite the opposite. It's probably the best solution.
lol I know that 4 is better than 2 myself, but is it realizable?


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Old June 8th, 2014, 07:08 AM   #2208
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For being one of the biggest rail countries(passenger wise), there isn't much news about new or current projects aside from Frankfurt-Mannheim line.
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Old June 8th, 2014, 11:28 AM   #2209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
For being one of the biggest rail countries(passenger wise), there isn't much news about new or current projects aside from Frankfurt-Mannheim line.
Hi,

I think you are aware of S21 (Stuttgart 21, http://www.bahnprojekt-stuttgart-ulm...anent/english/) project which includes a new underground train station and partly underground HSR from Stuttgart to Ulm and airport connection. All of them are under construction now until 2022 ...

There is also 4 km underground HSR at Rastatt, part of Karlsruhe-Basel HSR project (In german: http://www.karlsruhe-basel.de/index.php). Construction should start this year with completion in 2022 ...
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Old June 8th, 2014, 07:23 PM   #2210
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I know about Stuttgart21, but what about other projects? Electrification, modernization of tracks, new stations etc.
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Old June 8th, 2014, 08:42 PM   #2211
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All big projects are listed here, however only in German (we really need to get better with (multilingual) information and transparency in Germany in general). If you click on a project, you find more information, often with referring links.

Aus- und Neubauprojekte: Upgraded and new lines
Bauen im bestehenden Netz: Construction in existing network
Bauen an Personenbahnhöfen: Construction at stations
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Old June 8th, 2014, 09:02 PM   #2212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dimlys1994 View Post
GERMAN Rail (DB) has awarded Bombardier a €27m contract to supply seven Traxx DE ME multi-engine diesel locomotives for use on DB Autozug SyltShuttle car trains, which link Niebüll with Westerland on the island of Sylt in the German state of Schleswig-Holstein.
I don't understand why there aren't any talks about electrifying the stretch between (Hamburg-)Itzehoe - Westerland/Sylt. For one thing, many rail journeys start/end at Sylt in the DB network and this stretch is the only non-electrified for the IC-trains going there (for example, IC Westerland/Sylt-Hamburg-Dortmund-Frankfurt) and an other thing is the intense auto rail shuttle traffic between the island and mainland at Niebüll. Plus if Husum-Jübek was electrified too you'd have an electrified alternative to the Kiel canal bridge in Rendsburg if there would be problems there.
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Old June 8th, 2014, 09:33 PM   #2213
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I don't understand why there are no proposals to build a road connection with Sylt.

Not that I'm saying there should be any, but the ro-ro trains stand out in my mind as somewhat of an oddity.
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Old June 8th, 2014, 11:14 PM   #2214
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Quote:
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I don't understand why there are no proposals to build a road connection with Sylt.
Because the wadden sea between Sylt and the mainland is part of a national park and UNESCO World Heritage Site.
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Old June 9th, 2014, 02:11 AM   #2215
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Yesterday I rode RB from Freiburg to Offenburg, that was hellhole, no air conditioning and that day was very hot and in train was like 45 grad, people almost fainted, I stood up and had my head out of window to breathe.
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Old June 9th, 2014, 11:46 AM   #2216
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That sounds like someone writing about British train travel in the 1970s.

Was the air conditioning broken or do the RB trains not have any?
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Old June 10th, 2014, 01:01 AM   #2217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
That sounds like someone writing about British train travel in the 1970s.

Was the air conditioning broken or do the RB trains not have any?
Most modern multiple units do, but some regional services in Germany (both RB and RE) are still operated with refurbished n-Wagen regional coaches from the 60s and 70s. These rely on windows for cooling. I rode a couple of those yesterday (in 30 degrees and sun), and it was quite hot. The hottest experience I had yesterday however, was in the compartment coach on an Alex train (regional train franchise in Bavaria). At least standing with your head out the window gives a more "real" feeling of riding the train than sitting inside an air-conditioned EMU
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Old June 10th, 2014, 01:40 AM   #2218
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Yeah I don't think you can get that real feeling from any service in Britain now apart from the heritage trains that operate.

Some of the London Underground trains still provide it but they'll be all gone soon.
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Old June 10th, 2014, 11:43 AM   #2219
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HSTs still have the windows which need to be pulled down when opening the door, there was a comedy sketch about a guy putting his head out and subsequently losing it - though I forget what it was called
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Old June 10th, 2014, 08:36 PM   #2220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
I don't understand why there are no proposals to build a road connection with Sylt.

Not that I'm saying there should be any, but the ro-ro trains stand out in my mind as somewhat of an oddity.
I think it's the same as the Isle of Wight in the UK, the residents enjoy being separated from the rest of the country. With a normal road connection, they would become a dormitory town and lose some of their uniqueness.
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