daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 10th, 2014, 04:22 PM   #2241
doc7austin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 380
Likes (Received): 812

Quote:
I find the Munich - Amsterdam a really useful connection: I can arrive from Verona with an EC in the evening and get to a lot of places in western Germany and NL by the morning.
Deutsche Bahn recommends other alternatives: MXP-AMS on Easyjet, 4 times a day
doc7austin no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 10th, 2014, 04:32 PM   #2242
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Verona-Amsterdam trips by land (rail or road) are and will be a small niche market at best.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2014, 04:40 PM   #2243
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

By "Verona" I mean all N-E Italy and by "Amsterdam" I mean basically all western Germany and the whole Benelux. Doesn't seem too small, to me.

In the afternoon I'm doing business in the center of Padova, and then I'm having breakfast with a friend in Bonn, without the hassle of finding where to sleep (did it a few months ago).
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2014, 10:25 PM   #2244
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,103
Likes (Received): 3711

Any news on the new Frankfurt-Mannheim HSR? I couldn't find any updates.

Last edited by LtBk; July 10th, 2014 at 10:51 PM.
LtBk está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 10th, 2014, 10:50 PM   #2245
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Yes, it looks bleak for CNL. The above-mentioned train are mostly well packed, never went to Copenhagen that way, but night trains to Paris are usually packed to the last and they are not exactly cheap. And as German HSR does not provide super-fast access all across the country, trips from Hamburg, Munich or Berlin to Paris will always be more attractive overnight.
If DB really wants CNL to survive, it will have to come up with some complete new concept. Of course shrinking services down to a minimum will not help. But I guess the trend is to provide HS services for mid-range distances and just leave all long-distance transport to air companies. A shame.
Do they make a profit even when full? I'm guessing not or otherwise someone would be willing to run more not less of them.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2014, 09:22 AM   #2246
MarcVD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Brussels
Posts: 1,070
Likes (Received): 192

Quote:
Originally Posted by doc7austin View Post
CNL train to Copenhagen and Paris will be cut from December 2014 (maybe earlier).
Can I please ask you what is your source for that information ?
Many thanks in advance !
MarcVD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 11th, 2014, 12:14 PM   #2247
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by doc7austin View Post
With the cancellations of the Copenhagen and Paris CNL trains, the following service might experience a cut, because the overall business case is lost:
Munich - Amsterdam (lost through car Munich - Paris)
Zuerich - Hamburg (lost through cars Paris - Hamburg/Berlin)
The München - Amsterdam train could be combined with Zürich - Amsterdam and Zürich - Hamburg. That would probably keep the München - Hamburg alive as well.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2014, 09:27 AM   #2248
MarcVD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Brussels
Posts: 1,070
Likes (Received): 192

Can somebody explain me why Thalys trains take twice the time of RE trains for the
trip between Köln and Dusseldorf ? I booked a return journey between Brussels and
Dusseldorf for the next week-end, outbound with ICE + RE, and inbound with Thalys,
and noticed that the RE takes 30 minutes, while the Thalys needs an entire hour.
Different routing ? By the way, wonder of the yield management : Thalys trip in first
class was less expensive that second class, amusing...
MarcVD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2014, 04:07 PM   #2249
doc7austin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 380
Likes (Received): 812

Quote:
Can I please ask you what is your source for that information ?
Many thanks in advance !
The "Drehscheibe" Magazin, the 257th edition.
doc7austin no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2014, 04:10 PM   #2250
doc7austin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 380
Likes (Received): 812

Quote:
Can somebody explain me why Thalys trains take twice the time of RE trains for the
trip between Köln and Dusseldorf ? I booked a return journey between Brussels and
Dusseldorf for the next week-end, outbound with ICE + RE, and inbound with Thalys,
and noticed that the RE takes 30 minutes, while the Thalys needs an entire hour.
The tracks between Cologne and Dusseldorf are heavily used by so-called "Taktverkehr". Any additional traffic (e.g. Thalys) only gets the less favourable slots on the tracks.
Quote:
By the way, wonder of the yield management : Thalys trip in first
class was less expensive that second class, amusing...
Thats a very common occurence (also with Deutsche Bahn).
Most of the times a very restrictive First Class fare is cheaper than a more flexible second class fare.
doc7austin no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 14th, 2014, 04:19 PM   #2251
bill623
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 7
Likes (Received): 0

Will WL173 Siemens or Bombardier manufacturing
bill623 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 12:24 AM   #2252
MarcVD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Brussels
Posts: 1,070
Likes (Received): 192

Quote:
Originally Posted by doc7austin View Post
The tracks between Cologne and Dusseldorf are heavily used by so-called "Taktverkehr". Any additional traffic (e.g. Thalys) only gets the less favourable slots on the tracks.
That doesn't sound reasonnable... Even if "less favourable slots" are allocated,
I can't possibly see how a direct train can take twice the time of one that makes stops en route.

In french-speaking forums it is said that Thalys operations on the german network are deliberately sabotaged.

I'm just trying to understand...
MarcVD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 02:08 AM   #2253
Jeff Hawken
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Crewe / Halkali
Posts: 101
Likes (Received): 26

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
That doesn't sound reasonnable... Even if "less favourable slots" are allocated,
I can't possibly see how a direct train can take twice the time of one that makes stops en route.

In french-speaking forums it is said that Thalys operations on the german network are deliberately sabotaged.

I'm just trying to understand...
The timetable is optimized around providing best journey times and cross-platform connections for those trains which are there at the same minutes past each hour. Any train which is in an irregular path - regardless of its overall origin and destination - has to fit in between those regular-interval services. That means it has to wait time at junctions and stations en route, and maybe even for platform availability at Koln Hbf.
The alternative is to force the local trains out of the way to allow the irregular express service to pass, which means that in certain hours of the day (whenever the Thalys runs) the local timetable is destroyed, and connections lost. That is the way the French would do it, so I am not surprised that they view the logical German method as tantamount to sabotage.
Personally I prefer the German method (almost) every time.
Jeff Hawken no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 02:51 AM   #2254
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hawken View Post
The timetable is optimized around providing best journey times and cross-platform connections for those trains which are there at the same minutes past each hour. Any train which is in an irregular path - regardless of its overall origin and destination - has to fit in between those regular-interval services. That means it has to wait time at junctions and stations en route, and maybe even for platform availability at Koln Hbf.
The alternative is to force the local trains out of the way to allow the irregular express service to pass, which means that in certain hours of the day (whenever the Thalys runs) the local timetable is destroyed, and connections lost. That is the way the French would do it, so I am not surprised that they view the logical German method as tantamount to sabotage.
Personally I prefer the German method (almost) every time.
The problem with this philosophy is that, when tracks are very busy, you can't possibly run a fast international train service, one that is not suitable to be run 16x/day.

Switzerland is an (extreme) example of problems brought by this cult to repeated-interval timetable.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 09:04 AM   #2255
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Can somebody explain me why Thalys trains take twice the time of RE trains for the
trip between Köln and Dusseldorf ?
Strangely this is only in the direction of Düsseldorf - Köln, not the other way round. From Köln to Düsseldorf Thalys only needs 23 minutes, which is as much as the ICE or IC takes.
I think that it is Thalys' own fault that the reverse takes so long. Let me explain:
In the direction Köln - Düsseldorf Thalys leaves at xx:19 and arrives at xx:42. Given the symmetric nature of the interval timetable (on of its many advantages) that means that in the opposite direction the train should leave Düsseldorf at xx:18 and arrive in Köln at xx:41.
However, Köln is where the food is brought on board, so Thalys probably wanted a longer stop there, thus an earlier arrival. Looking at the timetable I notice that the stop in the Essen - Paris direction is 15 minutes, with an arrival in Köln at xx:29. That would require a departure in Düsseldorf at xx:08. Quite probably there was not fast path available for that departure time.
So I conclude that it is most probably Thalys' requirement for an asymmetric timetable that causes the issue.
And it's indeed a consequence of a difference in culture, where France seems to believe that a few direct trains a day are preferable over plenty of options involving connections. It's maybe because in France the main purpose of the railways is transporting people to/from Paris, whereas in Germany the railways are supposed to form the backbone of a system that intends to cover the whole country...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
The problem with this philosophy is that, when tracks are very busy, you can't possibly run a fast international train service, one that is not suitable to be run 16x/day.

Switzerland is an (extreme) example of problems brought by this cult to repeated-interval timetable.
Given that SBB is very successful you cannot escape the conclusion that they must be doing something right. What you fail to grasp is that it's the passengers that matters, not the trains. It is how fast you move people, not vehicles. It's not how fast trains go from Bern to Zürich, it's how fast someone can get from his house in Bern a meeting in an office in Zürich... And how reliable and frequent.
And that does require an integral approach. And that is increasingly being copied everywhere.

BTW, the only place where international trains systematically have to yield to local trafic is, afaik, Italy...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 11:54 AM   #2256
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Given that SBB is very successful you cannot escape the conclusion that they must be doing something right. What you fail to grasp is that it's the passengers that matters, not the trains. It is how fast you move people, not vehicles. It's not how fast trains go from Bern to Zürich, it's how fast someone can get from his house in Bern a meeting in an office in Zürich... And how reliable and frequent.
And that does require an integral approach. And that is increasingly being copied everywhere.

BTW, the only place where international trains systematically have to yield to local trafic is, afaik, Italy...
Can't we ever discuss something on this thread without it becoming ideological? It just gets boring when high speed-cultists clash with the Takt-cultists for the 531st time. As you said yourself, in this case this is probably not the problem at all, just Thalys's route management. Any many trains, not just Thalys, have regular long stopovers in Köln Hbf, because there are just many trains needing to use a limited number of tracks.
If Thalys would really like to make a difference for passengers from the Ruhr Area, it could bypass Cologne all together via Herzogenrath. The night train Berlin/Hamburg-Paris used to do that when it still ran via Brussels. But that would mean more seriously entering territories beyond Cologne than Thalys is prepared to.
And K, the holy "Takt" does not always work well for DB. It is a turn-off when you want to travel a serious distance across Germany, have to interrupt your work or snoozing or reading and jump onto another train and start searching for a seat again. But most especially, those connections often enough do not work: serious delays are rather common on the German net, and then you either have to wait 3/4 of an hour for the next train somewhere in the middle of the journey, or a train perfectly on time is left sitting there for ages just to wait for the passengers from the connecting train. I am sorry this is a serious hindrance, call it "psycho" if you will. for many travelers.
__________________

Rohne liked this post
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 02:00 PM   #2257
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Can't we ever discuss something on this thread without it becoming ideological? It just gets boring when high speed-cultists clash with the Takt-cultists for the 531st time.
Well, it is annoying when advocating running a railway as efficiently as possible is called a "cult".

Quote:
As you said yourself, in this case this is probably not the problem at all, just Thalys's route management. Any many trains, not just Thalys, have regular long stopovers in Köln Hbf, because there are just many trains needing to use a limited number of tracks.
Euh. Your statement is contradictory. The fact that Köln Hbf is a busy station with limited track capacity does not lead to trains needing long stopovers. More the contrary..

Quote:
If Thalys would really like to make a difference for passengers from the Ruhr Area, it could bypass Cologne all together via Herzogenrath. The night train Berlin/Hamburg-Paris used to do that when it still ran via Brussels. But that would mean more seriously entering territories beyond Cologne than Thalys is prepared to.
What do you mean by that? I dont think the Paris - Hamburg/Berlin night train ever ran via that route. Or do you mean that after Aachen it turned north? I doubt it would save time...


Quote:
And K, the holy "Takt" does not always work well for DB. It is a turn-off when you want to travel a serious distance across Germany, have to interrupt your work or snoozing or reading and jump onto another train and start searching for a seat again. But most especially, those connections often enough do not work: serious delays are rather common on the German net, and then you either have to wait 3/4 of an hour for the next train somewhere in the middle of the journey, or a train perfectly on time is left sitting there for ages just to wait for the passengers from the connecting train. I am sorry this is a serious hindrance, call it "psycho" if you will. for many travelers.
Just if you haven't noticed, but even France is moving to an interval timetable. And if you haven't noticed, but nowhere in Europe do people travel by train more then in Switzerland. Must be that changing trains isn't that big a hindrance in the end...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 02:46 PM   #2258
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

Okay, I see you are in your "An der Schweiz soll die Welt genesen"-mood, so the gloves are off.

1. Köln Hbf, however strained, manages to provide enough space for stopping trains (often two separate trains on the same platform). However to run into the 4 possible directions, the tracks converge soon after, so priorities must be set. As Köln is also a site for train to train transfers and as one of the trains is often late, departure schedules are often upset by a few minutes.
2. Notice on http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...ny/germany.gif a rail which runs diagonally from Duisburg to Aachen via Krefeld, M.Gladbach and Herzogenrath. This is the route the night train used to take, as it taking in passengers from Cologne in the middle of the night was not considered an option. Daytime services via this route would of course depend on a serious increase in passenger demand from the Ruhr or places east of there.
3. Possibly the Takt works wonders for Switzerland, you will know the system there better than me. But DB is not such a precise animal. On any given day, walking to your train station, you will must likely see some signs for some long-distance trains such as "delayed 30 min", "delayed 45". This is not so bad if you know your train will get you there in the end, but if because of this you miss connections, late arrivals often add up to more than an hour and frantic attempts at replaning your route (as not all Germany is perfectly in Takt).
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 09:16 PM   #2259
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

I think this perfect connections only works perfectly in a relatively small country where hardly any rail journey is more than 3 h. In a larger country where you have true long distance traffic, regional traffic plus the local one it becomes a bit more complicated. Traffic patterns are also different (meaning where people want to go) so I don't think there is a one size fits all model.
__________________

Rohne liked this post
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 16th, 2014, 09:28 PM   #2260
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
1. Köln Hbf, however strained, manages to provide enough space for stopping trains (often two separate trains on the same platform). However to run into the 4 possible directions, the tracks converge soon after, so priorities must be set. As Köln is also a site for train to train transfers and as one of the trains is often late, departure schedules are often upset by a few minutes.
All the more reason to stick to a strict interval timetable without any exceptions. The whole reason for interval timetables is to get the best use out of your infrastructure. You work out one hour in detail, solve all the conflicts, and just repeat it... It's not a Swiss invention btw. The Dutch came up with the idea. It's the only way they could manage to run that many trains on their network. It was then later copied by DB for their IC network.
When the SBB announced their intention to introduce a interval timetable everyone in the country thought they were nuts.

Quote:
2. Notice on http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...ny/germany.gif a rail which runs diagonally from Duisburg to Aachen via Krefeld, M.Gladbach and Herzogenrath. This is the route the night train used to take, as it taking in passengers from Cologne in the middle of the night was not considered an option. Daytime services via this route would of course depend on a serious increase in passenger demand from the Ruhr or places east of there.
Firstly I don't think the night train took that route that often. It is probably not faster. I have an old timetable here (from 1987) and it shows all the night trains to Hamburg and beyond (they went as far as Copenhagen then) calling at Köln.
Anyway. especially now, I don't think that trip times via Mönchengladbach would be faster. You'd would lose passengers to from Köln though, (and any that connect there). And if you can move your base of operations away from Köln the problem with the long stop for Paris bound trains disappears as well, and the train could get a fast path in both directions.

Quote:
3. Possibly the Takt works wonders for Switzerland, you will know the system there better than me. But DB is not such a precise animal. On any given day, walking to your train station, you will must likely see some signs for some long-distance trains such as "delayed 30 min", "delayed 45". This is not so bad if you know your train will get you there in the end, but if because of this you miss connections, late arrivals often add up to more than an hour and frantic attempts at replaning your route (as not all Germany is perfectly in Takt).
Well. you are here convincingly arguing against allowing exceptions, because indeed, these mess things up.
There are a few international routes I regularly travel. One is Köln - Basel. And here because DB has coordinated the schedules of Köln - München services with Frankfurt - Basel services the end result is that there is an hourly connection from anywhere in the Rhine valley to Basel. Some direct, some with changes. Then in Basel some ICE's continue to Zürich, others to Bern and Interlaken, but always with a connecting train so that both Zürich and Bern have hourly connections to Germany.
And yes, if I were to go to Hamburg, I would probably take the direct Basel - Hamburg train. However, you sometimes have other constraints. And having a well integrated network gives more options, and thus more value.
SBB does this quite well with the TGVs to/from France. The Paris - Zürich TGVs give a cross platform connection with trains to Bern and Interlaken in Basel. Which makes the one daily direct TGV from Paris to Interlaken in fact completely superfluous. But SNCF insisted. This is clearly again a cultural difference. If you can't get there by direct train from Paris the place doesn't exist apparently...
Very different however with the TGVs from Geneve to points in Southern France. If only SNCF would coordinate the timetables of their intersector TGVs better in a few hubs (ok, they've started to do some of that) a whole lot more destinations would become viable from Geneve. But alas, in most cases all the gain the LGV Sud brings to those trains gets lost in badly timed connections.

No, that SMA now gets asked to design timetables for everyone in Europe isn't really an accident...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium