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Old November 26th, 2014, 12:57 AM   #2461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
As far as I know blinking yellow is the only not fail safe signal aspect in the Dutch signalling system. If the blinking fails and the signal would display a yellow, that's a less restricting aspect.
Also exists in other countries, for example in France where blinking green is
more restrictive than green. But this blinking green is not used very frequently,
only on lines where speed is over 160 km/h.
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Old November 26th, 2014, 01:12 AM   #2462
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Maybe the blinking circuit is designed so that in case of failure it will just shut down the light.


Anyway, even if there isn't a specific signal to authorize a movement on an occupied track, all systems have a manual procedure to override the ATP and proceed over a red light. I wouldn't say it is a very common operation in all European countries, only some countries do that in regular sevice.
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Old November 26th, 2014, 01:18 AM   #2463
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What solutions does ERTMS-3 brings to shunting and related operations?
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Old November 26th, 2014, 07:35 AM   #2464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
In Belgium : the procedure used for that is the same as when a loco
must be coupled to a train. The loco will enter the occupied block with
a "shunting" authorization (signal red + white), telling the train driver to
drive "on sight" and remain able to stop before any obstacle.

This procedure is also used when two short trains are sharing the same
platform.
Do I understand right that when the procedure is use for a short train (emu for example), then the train when approaching to station will switch to shunting mode which allows passing signal signalling red + white and continues to station track already occupied. Does driving "on sight" require lower speed or is it allowed to use the speed that is allowed when train arrives as usual, without red + white?

Can the train pass red + white without stopping before the signal or is it required to stop for going into "shunting" mode and then continue through red + white?

Shunting when passengers on board is allowed then I assume?
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Old November 26th, 2014, 08:58 AM   #2465
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Also exists in other countries, for example in France where blinking green is more restrictive than green.
There are plenty of examples like that, for instance in Japan double yellow is more restricting than single yellow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Maybe the blinking circuit is designed so that in case of failure it will just shut down the light.
The advantage of the failsafe design of the Dutch signalling aspects used to be that you didn't need an extra circuit to check for that, because it would always revert to a more restricting aspect in case of failure.

You can't just switch off a signal! A dark signal is to be treated as a red signal, except for two exceptions: It is marked with a white cross (intentionally not in operation) or switched off because the train is under LZB guidance. The latter is not needed any more, because trains under LZB guidance can ignore line side signals.
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Old November 26th, 2014, 02:05 PM   #2466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
The advantage of the failsafe design of the Dutch signalling aspects used to be that you didn't need an extra circuit to check for that, because it would always revert to a more restricting aspect in case of failure.

You can't just switch off a signal! A dark signal is to be treated as a red signal,
What I mean is the specific circuit which, when fed, makes the light blink.
Usually in the past it was a simple relais, and that piece may be designed so that when failing it will leave the light circuit open (= no light).

Quote:
As far as I know blinking yellow is the only not fail safe signal aspect in the Dutch signalling system. If the blinking fails and the signal would display a yellow, that's a less restricting aspect.
There's a similar condition with the green signal: steady light is (much) less restrictive than blinking light.
That's why I think the blinking circuit is designed NOT to leave the light on in case of failure

This is fail safe anyway because, with lights off, the driver will have to stop and check the situation, while the interlocking system will recognize the failure due to the open circuit.

Probably today there's a digital control behind that blinking, but the logic will be similar.
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Old November 26th, 2014, 02:30 PM   #2467
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Originally Posted by telemaxx View Post
They already electrified Reichenbach-Hof in the recent years. I think an electrification also makes sense for public transport. Of course, it is expensive, the question is what the alternatives are and how expensive those are.
I think that we agree that there is, for the moment, no real alternative to an upgrate of the Y-Trasse corridors. That would bring a lot more benefit than upgrating s somehow important link along the Czech border for the country as a whole.
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Old November 26th, 2014, 07:16 PM   #2468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtManDoo View Post
the train when approaching to station will switch to shunting mode which allows passing signal signalling red + white and continues to station track already occupied.
It is the red+white combination that tells the driver that he enters shunting mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtManDoo View Post
Does driving "on sight" require lower speed or is it allowed to use the speed that is allowed when train arrives as usual, without red + white?
Shunting mode = 40 km/h maximum + adapt speed so that the train can
always be stopped within the track interval seen as free by the driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtManDoo View Post
Can the train pass red + white without stopping before the signal or is it required to stop for going into "shunting" mode and then continue through red + white?
No the train does not need to stop. But the advance signal will display a two
yellows aspect, i.e. the same as if the main signal was at red. So the driver
will usually arrive at this signal at a very reduced speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtManDoo View Post
Shunting when passengers on board is allowed then I assume?
Yes of course. We have a lot of train coupling/decoupling in Belgium so that
happens all the time.
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Old November 26th, 2014, 08:10 PM   #2469
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By the way: the maximum allowed shunting speed is a national value, as is 'on sight'.
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Old November 26th, 2014, 09:15 PM   #2470
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Quote:
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Yes of course. We have a lot of train coupling/decoupling in Belgium so that
happens all the time.
A week ago at Bruxelles Midi I saw two TGVs being uncoupled, and one was moved a couple of meters away, with doors open and people getting off. Is that normal?
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Old November 26th, 2014, 09:54 PM   #2471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
It is the red+white combination that tells the driver that he enters shunting mode.
When there is need to add new functionality to existing signalling system, the biggest compromise IMO is allowing to pass red when conditions are met. I think such a change could be stressful for train drivers, maybe it's not a big issue.

One possibility could be adding such a logic when white is active then red will shut down. In that case only some signals must be rebuilt leaving the other systems (interlocking, track coding, etc) untouched.
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Old November 27th, 2014, 10:39 AM   #2472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtManDoo View Post
When there is need to add new functionality to existing signalling system, the biggest compromise IMO is allowing to pass red when conditions are met. I think such a change could be stressful for train drivers, maybe it's not a big issue.

One possibility could be adding such a logic when white is active then red will shut down. In that case only some signals must be rebuilt leaving the other systems (interlocking, track coding, etc) untouched.
It is not an addition, it has been designed like that from the start. The signal
is made in such a way that you see only the red at distance and the white
only when you are real close.
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Old November 27th, 2014, 10:42 AM   #2473
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
A week ago at Bruxelles Midi I saw two TGVs being uncoupled, and one was moved a couple of meters away, with doors open and people getting off. Is that normal?
Certainly not. If an accident with a passenger had happened, responsibility
of the company would have been engaged. The correct procedure is to warn
passengers thru the PA system that the train will be moved, close the doors
of the unit that will move, move, and re-open the doors afterwards. Of course
the doors of the unit that does not move can remain open.
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Old November 27th, 2014, 01:51 PM   #2474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
There's a similar condition with the green signal: steady light is (much) less restrictive than blinking light.
Yes, that aspect isn't intrinsically safe either, however for the blinking green the situation is a bit different:
For signal aspects that allow speeds over 40 km/h the blinking green is always accompanied by a speed display. If the blinking were to fail the speed display still works. If the speed display fails the signal simply shows a more restrictive aspect. In pretty much all cases these signals are also complemented by the ATB system. Thus you need compound failures to actually create an unsafe situation. For speeds of 40 km/h and under, green or blinking green have the same meaning.

In case of (blinking) yellow there is no protection by the ATB system except for an enforced 40 km/h speed limit.
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Old November 28th, 2014, 06:35 PM   #2475
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From Railway Gazette:

Quote:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/t...olled-out.html

National Express Talent 2 EMU rolled out
28 Nov 2014


The first Talent 2 electric multiple-unit for National Express rolls out at Bombardier's Henningsdorf plant, photo by Bernd Piplack

GERMANY: The first Talent 2 electric multiple-unit for National Express was ceremonially rolled out at Bombardier Transportation's Henningsdorf plant on November 28, watched by guests including British ambassador Sir Simon McDonald.

The 160 km/h units are to be deployed on two routes which a consortium of the UK transport group and local partner IntEgro Verkehr are to operate from December 2015 under a 15-year contract awarded in February 2013 by the Rhein-Ruhr, Westfalen-Lippe and Rheinland transport authorities. The routes are:
  • RE7: Rheine – Münster – Hamm – Hagen – Wuppertal – Solingen – Köln – Krefeld;
  • RB48: Wuppertal-Oberbarmen – Solingen – Köln – Bonn-Mehlem
The services are currently operated by DB Regio and carry around 18 million passengers/year. When it won the contract, National Express said it expected the services to generate revenue of around €1·6bn over the 15-year period

...
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Old November 29th, 2014, 06:58 PM   #2476
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Well, it has already been almost 200 years since the invention of the train. And actually, in the last 100 years, the system did not evolve that much (compared to say airplanes in the same time). The fastest trains in for example 1930s Italy were not much slower than today's average.
Are you paid for by the rail industry? Talent trains are quite unpopular with travelers. I do not know if the 2nd generation is any better, but I have not heard anyone enthusiastic about them.
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Old November 30th, 2014, 03:13 PM   #2477
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The fastest cars in the 1930ies have hit almost 400 kph. Today's average speed is nowhere near that mark, so you can hardly argue that the railroad "did hardly evolve", can you?
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Old November 30th, 2014, 04:00 PM   #2478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Well, it has already been almost 200 years since the invention of the train. And actually, in the last 100 years, the system did not evolve that much (compared to say airplanes in the same time). The fastest trains in for example 1930s Italy were not much slower than today's average.
Are you paid for by the rail industry? Talent trains are quite unpopular with travelers. I do not know if the 2nd generation is any better, but I have not heard anyone enthusiastic about them.
Don't you see a difference?
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Old November 30th, 2014, 04:31 PM   #2479
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In any case further development won't be in ever greater top speed neither for trains nor cars or airplanes. There are physical limits for that.
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Old December 1st, 2014, 10:34 PM   #2480
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Well, it has already been almost 200 years since the invention of the train. And actually, in the last 100 years, the system did not evolve that much (compared to say airplanes in the same time). The fastest trains in for example 1930s Italy were not much slower than today's average.
So you're comparing the 2nd 100 years of train development with the 1st 100 years of plane development? In its first 100 years train development evolved from a powered horse carriage to something that can be considered about 90% of what we have now. We haven't got a single clue of what planes will look like in 100 years. Also since 1957 (introduction of the Boeing 707) the speed of commercial airliners hasn't really increased, where passenger trains went from 200 km/h to 320 km/h. You could consider Concorde to be the maglev of planes. It's exists but the concept has never really taken off

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Talent trains are quite unpopular with travelers.
Why? If the operators choose to fit uncomfortable seats combined with a too narrow seat pitch, you can hardly blame Bombardier for that.
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