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Old February 4th, 2010, 02:39 AM   #241
ruslan33
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This project is really stunning. German engineering and architecture at it's best !
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Old February 4th, 2010, 11:08 AM   #242
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Great Video.
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Old February 5th, 2010, 05:52 PM   #243
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Yeah, über-awesome video!

P.S.: Note the TGV and the Lufthansa A380!
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Old February 6th, 2010, 11:21 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
make that Glasgow-Ankara
Oh jeez, Western European trains are prohibitevly expensive as it is, I honestly can't imagine anybody in his right mind taking such a trip via train.
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Old February 9th, 2010, 05:00 AM   #245
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That video is great!
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Old February 9th, 2010, 05:11 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Isek View Post
Today construction started at Stuttgart HBf.

http://www.spiegel.de/video/video-1044166.html

Only in Germany: There were 1500 protestors against that project.
Its like that everywhere.
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Old February 9th, 2010, 11:48 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Gzdvtz View Post
Oh jeez, Western European trains are prohibitevly expensive as it is, I honestly can't imagine anybody in his right mind taking such a trip via train.
I have done Berlin - Istanbul many times. It presently takes about 44 hours, and is relaxing trip in comfortable Eurocitys up to Budapest and then in older but fully functional sleepers where you have usually a cabin to your self.
If you spend a little bit of energy on finding the right price, prices are competitive to flying. And you get to see some of Central and Southeastern Europe's scenery from the window. Highspeed along this line would take much of the romanticism out of this trip, but would make it timewise more competitive.
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Old February 9th, 2010, 05:17 PM   #248
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^
Yes, it might be romantic and an adventure but it is not an economical travel option. Over such distances, rail has no chance against the plane.
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Old February 9th, 2010, 10:10 PM   #249
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Only in Germany: There were 1500 protestors against that project.
These aren't your usual NIMBYs (not-in-my-backyard). The project consists of a high speed line towards Ulm and the replacement of the current 16 track terminus station by an 8 track underground one.

The high speed line has relatively little opposition.

However there are very good reasons to oppose the burying of the main station, and a majority (!) of the inhabitants do. Many consider reducing the track count a dumb idea since it prevents the simultaneous meeting of 16 trains for quick changeover between all of them. Also, the trains in the underground station can't wait for delayed connections since they have to clear their track for incoming trains. The travel time saved by the station is only about 5 minutes. So in summary you get reduced capacity and 5 minutes travel time reduction for a very hefty price tag - only because Deutsche Bahn wants to sell the land currently occupied by the station.
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Old February 10th, 2010, 01:29 AM   #250
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These aren't your usual NIMBYs (not-in-my-backyard). The project consists of a high speed line towards Ulm and the replacement of the current 16 track terminus station by an 8 track underground one.

The high speed line has relatively little opposition.

However there are very good reasons to oppose the burying of the main station, and a majority (!) of the inhabitants do. Many consider reducing the track count a dumb idea since it prevents the simultaneous meeting of 16 trains for quick changeover between all of them. Also, the trains in the underground station can't wait for delayed connections since they have to clear their track for incoming trains. The travel time saved by the station is only about 5 minutes. So in summary you get reduced capacity and 5 minutes travel time reduction for a very hefty price tag - only because Deutsche Bahn wants to sell the land currently occupied by the station.
This is not correct. The proposed station will have a bigger capacity than the present one which is horribly short of capacity and far from dealing with 16 trains simultaneously.
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Old February 10th, 2010, 09:18 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by goschio View Post
^
Yes, it might be romantic and an adventure but it is not an economical travel option. Over such distances, rail has no chance against the plane.
Wait till oil hits 200$ a barrel...
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Old February 10th, 2010, 05:02 PM   #252
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In France SNCF is only interested in transporting people to/from Paris. In Germany DB must operate a network however, because the population distribution is o different.
The argument is going on since so long that I don't understand anymore what is at stake here.

From my point of view, the TGV does very well what it was designed for. France human and physical geography makes it worthwile to have long point-to-point HSLs centered on Paris. These lines are the most profitable, the ones that are generating the most traffic. And by chaneling inter-province movements on those mainlines you maximize profit and investment. Economically speaking, that's very logical and desirable. In this scheme, the "beet-field" stations are just anecdotical, most of the trains originated in "Hauptbahnhöfe".

The true HSN is still incomplete and with the developpment of Regional and IR network (in the hand of local governement since the mid 00s) the bad side of this hyper-centralization should grow thinner in next decades.
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Old February 10th, 2010, 06:46 PM   #253
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Wait till oil hits 200$ a barrel...
Even at that price it would be cheaper and more convenient to fly that distance.

Sitting in a train for more than 5-6 hours is just weird if there is a quicker and cheaper option available. .
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Old February 10th, 2010, 09:39 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by alphorn2 View Post
These aren't your usual NIMBYs (not-in-my-backyard). The project consists of a high speed line towards Ulm and the replacement of the current 16 track terminus station by an 8 track underground one.

The high speed line has relatively little opposition.

However there are very good reasons to oppose the burying of the main station, and a majority (!) of the inhabitants do. Many consider reducing the track count a dumb idea since it prevents the simultaneous meeting of 16 trains for quick changeover between all of them. Also, the trains in the underground station can't wait for delayed connections since they have to clear their track for incoming trains. The travel time saved by the station is only about 5 minutes. So in summary you get reduced capacity and 5 minutes travel time reduction for a very hefty price tag - only because Deutsche Bahn wants to sell the land currently occupied by the station.
Regional trains that begin/end in Stuttgart Hbf. might be able to stop in front of each other on one track (so you have one platform for two trains, on going e. g. to the east and one to the west). It works fine that way e. g. in Augsburg. Therefore, 8 tracks do not necessarily have to equal only 8 trains at the same time.
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Old February 11th, 2010, 12:03 AM   #255
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This is not correct. The proposed station will have a bigger capacity than the present one which is horribly short of capacity and far from dealing with 16 trains simultaneously.
The capacity increase was computed by assuming that local trains need to stop 6 minutes in the terminus station and only 1 minute in the new underground one. That is not realistic: In Zurich, local trains stop 5 minutes in the terminus part and 2 minutes in the underground one.

There are capacity problems in the old terminus station, but they can be fixed for a much lower price by building some short bridges and tunnels that allow conflict free departures.

But most importantly: A station with only 4 tracks per direction forever prevents the meeting of a large number of trains that allows changeover from every train to every other train - a highly successful concept used in Switzerland.
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Old February 11th, 2010, 03:31 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by goschio View Post

Sitting in a train for more than 5-6 hours is just weird if there is a quicker and cheaper option available. .
It's no different than sitting in an airplane for 5-6 hours.
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Old February 11th, 2010, 11:16 AM   #257
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It's no different than sitting in an airplane for 5-6 hours.
It is, it is much more relaxed. Especially since many modern trains have improved leg room etc. nowadays. You can move about, change the scene by going to the dining car etc. In the cramped space of average economy class airliners, things become more claustrophobi quickly. Recently after being kept waiting on the runway for four hours (something not so unusual this winter), passengers created an uproar, attacked the pilot, opened the emergency exit, etc. all due to a feeling of claustrophobia.
I think there is no question that train travel can be made much more agreeable than flying. The question is really though whether people are willing to accept the overall longer travel time on distances 300km+ and whether railways can keep upt the uneven competition if airlines continue to be subsized by being granted tax-free petrol.
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Old February 11th, 2010, 02:27 PM   #258
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Baron, I think you're being unfair to the railways when you speak of the "overall longer travel time on distances 300km+". It used to be a dictum that trains are mostly faster than planes, on a point-to-point basis, when the train travel takes at most 3 hours. With the airport security hysteria of recent years I guess the limit is more like 3.5 hours, and statistics showing the relative share of railways in collective transport seem to corroborate this. Hence, if I am right then modern state-of-the-art railways give trains an "overall shorter travel time" on distances <800km.
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Old February 11th, 2010, 02:32 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by alphorn2 View Post
But most importantly: A station with only 4 tracks per direction forever prevents the meeting of a large number of trains that allows changeover from every train to every other train - a highly successful concept used in Switzerland.
So successfull that SBB is building a four track underground station under Zürich HBF that will be used for long distance trains from 2013 onwards...
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Old February 11th, 2010, 02:46 PM   #260
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Even at that price it would be cheaper and more convenient to fly that distance.
I doubt it. Fuel makes up a large part of the price of flying. When oil went over 100$ a barrel none of the airlines in Europe were making money. Even Ryanair was operating at a loss, and was only saved because of the crisis lowering oil demand (and thus prices).

At 200$ a barrel count on many lines being discontinued. Then trains come back in to the picture for longer flights.

Remember that we can run a train on nuclear power, but so far have not found a way to do the same thing with a plane...

Quote:
Sitting in a train for more than 5-6 hours is just weird if there is a quicker and cheaper option available. .
I prefer 8 hours in the train to 2 hours flying anytime. Don't forget that you also need to get to the aiport and back. With a good integrated system your trip starts at your local station, not in some far away airport. Their are far more railway stations than airports.

If I want to visit my relatives (most of who live two countries away...) I have two options.
1) train - plane - train
2) train al the way.

Option 1) takes 6 hours.
1 1/2 hour to the airport.
1 hour waiting/hanging around/trying not to strangle the employees at the security check.
1 1/2 hour flight.
1/2 hour getting of the plane, collecting luggage etc...
1 1/2 hour getting to my final destination by train.

option 2) takes 8 hours. I have a departure every hour, and never have more than 10 minutes waiting time for connections. So I spend most of that time in a comfortable train, watching DVDs or just surfing the internet.

Price of option 2 is about a third of option 1. Even less when there's two of us.
To me it's a no brainer, especially as by train I can leave after breakfast, and be at my destination before dinner. To me that is perfect timing. Lunch I have on the train. All the plane options either require me to leave earlier or accept arriving later.

For longer distances there is the night train. Fortunately the train to our favorite holiday destination is still going strong.
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