daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 20th, 2015, 09:45 PM   #2681
Autostädter
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dortmund
Posts: 1,172
Likes (Received): 995

^ Yes, the rail infrastructure is owned by DB and used to make profits. In a (German) article it is mentioned that DB is planning to cut spending of it's own capital into rail infrastructure from €970 million in 2013 to 830 million in 2017, while they want to raise profits from rail infrastructure from 890 million to 1.2 bn p.a. at the same time. I recently watched a documentary where the practice of DB is investigated. They let the infrastructure deteriorate so they get higher yields in the short term, which they use to expand globally. This is in effect the misuse of tax money to subsidise a private corporation, money that is spent overseas instead.
__________________

Surel, Rohne liked this post

Last edited by Autostädter; July 20th, 2015 at 10:40 PM.
Autostädter no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 20th, 2015, 09:59 PM   #2682
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

I don't know what is worse... that the AC on trains fails during summer, or that DB has had rolls of tape manufactured for it.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2015, 10:32 PM   #2683
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,103
Likes (Received): 3717

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autostädter View Post
^ Yes, the rail infrastructure is owned by DB and used to make profits. In a (German) article it is mentioned that DB is planning to cut spending of it's own capital into rail infrastructure from €970 million in 2013 to 830 million in 2017, while they want to raise profits from rail infrastructure from 890 million to 1.2 bn p.a. at the same time. I recently watched a documentary where the practice of DB is investigated. They let the infrastructure wear and tear so they get higher yields in the short term, which they use to expand globally. This is in effect the misuse of tax money to subsidise a private corporation, money that is spent overseas instead.
Wouldn't infrastructure problems reduce profits due to delays? Any pressure in stopping DB?

Last edited by LtBk; July 20th, 2015 at 10:38 PM.
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 20th, 2015, 10:56 PM   #2684
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2156

The not existing separation of the operators and infrastructure in Germany is really most unfortunate and EU wise scandalous.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 12:04 AM   #2685
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
I don't know what is worse... that the AC on trains fails during summer, or that DB has had rolls of tape manufactured for it.
You must admit it's some very stilish and professional bullshit
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 12:07 AM   #2686
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,103
Likes (Received): 3717

How would you guys rank passenger rail in Germany on a 1-10 scale?
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 05:00 AM   #2687
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,039
Likes (Received): 8718

Management Bahn at its best again.
__________________
Europa per gli europei
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 10:46 AM   #2688
doc7austin
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 380
Likes (Received): 813

Quote:
Wouldn't infrastructure problems reduce profits due to delays? Any pressure in stopping DB?
This is not the UK.
DB Fernverkehr operates 99% of all long-distance trains in Germany. They also act as operator for the ÖBB, MAV and RZD EuroNight trains inside of Germany.

DB Netze is the owner and operator of 99% of the rail infrastructure in Germany.

In theory, DB Fernverkehr could sue DB Netze for damages resulting from the failing infrastructure. However, both companies belong to the DB Holding (Deutsche Bahn AG) cooporation. DB Holding is instructing its companies not sue each other. Hence, there is no real incentive of DB Netze to keep the infrastructure working.

Quote:
Wouldn't infrastructure problems reduce profits due to delays? Any pressure in stopping DB?
No, because they are virtually no penalties for infrastructure problems. The passenger may get 25% of the ticket price back if a train is delayed by more than 60 minutes. The process is, however, very bureaucratic (no online forms, you need to mail in your claim) and only a few passenger use their passenger rights.

Last edited by doc7austin; July 21st, 2015 at 01:15 PM.
doc7austin está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 11:08 AM   #2689
Aranou
However
 
Aranou's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On vull
Posts: 1,589
Likes (Received): 1246

Deutsche Bahn has serious problems in general... DB is not an example of the so called "German efficiency..."
__________________
Som qui som
Aranou no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 01:53 PM   #2690
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

Concerning the delay question - in the old days of state corporation Bundesbahn, a long-distance train was given priority clearing and everything was done to avoid or reduce its delay. Nowadays I have the opposite impression: quite often I have sat on badly delayed ICE trains and seen a punctual Regional Express given priority before our ICE could proceed. The reason is that DB has to pay fines to the state for the publicly ordered and subsidized regional transport, whereas on long-distance trains, there is only the above-mentioned individual partial refund for delays of over 60 minutes.

About the rating of DB in international comparison, I think it should get a middle grade. On the upside, there are connections to almost all places on an hourly basis, thanks to the subsidies for regional transport, and the grid is still one of the most comprehensive on the continent. On the downside, there is no clear concept what DB aims for: a tightly integrated and punctual network according to the Swiss system or a high-speed system that crosses the huge distances in the country at optimal speeds according to the French model. In effect, it fulfills the expectation of neither efficiently and is bound to disappoint.

Also they definitely waited too long for ordering new rolling stock. 3 years ago when the business was doing well, it would have been great to introduce new services in spanking new trains, reduce intervals on main lines such as Berlin-Dortmund-Cologne from 60 to 30 minutes; at present, demand has gone down so far that this might not prove feasible.

Onboard service has also not changed since ages. While every corner coffee shop offers free wifi for people who buy a cup of coffee, passengers who bought a train ticket for 50 Euros or more were still expected to pay extra for this. I read a ridiculous article by DB that they would first have to make a study whether it would be technically doable to offer free wifi for an entire train. Meanwhile Austria's RailJet have offered such a service from the beginning.

DB's neglecting attitude also extended to letting the negotiations with the trade union run on endlessly with off and on strikes from last summer until the present one. While believing they could sit this out, in the end many disgruntled passengers looked for permanent alternatives and DB had to accept most of the demands of the union, thus a double loss for the company.

i really wonder how they plan to get DB back on track. Politics are certainly not helping, with the minister of transport announcing a major offensive for constructing more autobahns but nothing substantive for the railways.
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 03:37 PM   #2691
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,039
Likes (Received): 8718

The DB management reflects just perfectly the attitude of the federal government.

Per Capita Investment


Road investment = 100 %

Source: http://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/in...infrastruktur/
__________________
Europa per gli europei

Tronador liked this post
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 04:02 PM   #2692
SturmBeobachter
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Siemenstadt
Posts: 138
Likes (Received): 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
How would you guys rank passenger rail in Germany on a 1-10 scale?
Me personally 3-. Prices are too big, most of the trains are late all the time, with ICE's especially having more late minutes than regional trains. Infrastructure is not even close to be adequate for the system's frequency. Germany does not have separate tracks for High speed trains and regional and freight traffic as the France,UK, Spain or other countries with modern railway infrastructure, so every type of train uses the same section. That was surely ok in 1965, but in 2015 it's just funny.

My somewhat high mark of 3- is partially given because some main stations in Germany (those are called HBF) have LIDL's, Edeka's, Rewe's or Kaiser's which are opened until 22hours, which is considered extremely late opening times in Germany. So, when your overpaid train runs few hours late, you might buy some groceries on your way home...of course, if you're not too late.
SturmBeobachter no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 05:47 PM   #2693
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,103
Likes (Received): 3717

Don't you think 3/10 rating is bit too harsh?
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 06:16 PM   #2694
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,039
Likes (Received): 8718

Hehe, this just showed up on my Twitter feed and it fits the 3/10 question perfectly:

Quote:
Beschwerde an die ÖBB: binnen 1 Stunde kriegt man einen Reisegutschein und eine Entschuldigung Beschwerde an die Deutsche Bahn:keine Antwort
https://twitter.com/florianklenk/sta...07882227683328

Translation:

Complaint to ÖBB: within 1 hour you get a travel voucher and an apology
Complaint to DB: no answer
__________________
Europa per gli europei
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 06:42 PM   #2695
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,103
Likes (Received): 3717

If you think passenger rail in DE is worth 3/10, than I don't know how you feel about countries that have far more inferior networks including those in Europe.
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 06:54 PM   #2696
Kampflamm
Endorsed by the NRA
 
Kampflamm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Broisn
Posts: 23,691

Well, I suppose those would be rated as 2 or 1/10. Deutsche Bahn is a shitty organization, the trains are always late, using them during the summer time is a pain the ass. I'm pretty sure cattle are treated better on their way to the slaughterhouse than people riding DB trains.
__________________
Free German passport

"I think it's a privilege to call yourself a Wunderbarler and it's something that you have to earn."

SturmBeobachter liked this post
Kampflamm no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 07:04 PM   #2697
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,103
Likes (Received): 3717

Than again it's common for people to bash their passenger rail operators in other countries.
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 07:05 PM   #2698
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
The DB management reflects just perfectly the attitude of the federal government.

Per Capita Investment
I wonder where do the raw data come from. I'm not saying they are necessarily wrong, but a bit counterintuitive for sure.
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 07:07 PM   #2699
Sunfuns
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Basel
Posts: 2,426
Likes (Received): 361

Other than Swiss and perhaps Austrians is there anyone else in Europe who rates their own rail system as good or very good?
__________________

Wilhem275 liked this post
Sunfuns no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 21st, 2015, 07:22 PM   #2700
SturmBeobachter
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Siemenstadt
Posts: 138
Likes (Received): 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
Don't you think 3/10 rating is bit too harsh?
No, and it's not 3/10 but 3-/10, that is more like 2+/10.

Last year I gave a fortune on trips with DB (and I have a Bahn discount card), and in more than 90% of trips I was LATE. And if you're late with ICE trains for 60 minutes and up you file a report, and wait weeks and weeks for them to answer and to return you a very small ammount of money given. I do not expect ultra comfortable seats, the most modern trains or the magical service, just trains to be punctual and properly airconditioned according to the part of the year. Even many 3rd world countries have done it right a long time ago for the fraction of the price, so there is no reason DB can't do it. It's just a prime example of job badly done, not to mention constant strikes terror.
SturmBeobachter no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium