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Old November 11th, 2016, 08:16 PM   #3121
Baron Hirsch
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Sad but true. Even ICE1 can do 280 kmh.
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Old November 11th, 2016, 08:27 PM   #3122
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General rule: at these rates of speed, such a little Vmax difference has almost no influence.

To do a useful evaluation, look at the actual travel times and then pull a judgement.
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Old November 12th, 2016, 04:14 PM   #3123
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General rule: at these rates of speed, such a little Vmax difference has almost no influence.
And higher speeds do increase costs...

Trains should not run as fast as possible, but as fast as usefull. There is no point in having high speed if in the end you end up just spending more time between trains in the station (as is often the case in France or Italy...)
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Old November 12th, 2016, 08:08 PM   #3124
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Quote:
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And higher speeds do increase costs...

Trains should not run as fast as possible, but as fast as usefull. There is no point in having high speed if in the end you end up just spending more time between trains in the station (as is often the case in France or Italy...)
I didn't want to make a comparison with other countries as I also think the german railway system is better as a whole...But it is just nonsense for me to invest so much money in a train that can not even use the infrastructure at maximum. Why did Germany build railways capable of 300 km/h if it makes no difference in time comparing with 250 km/h, and there will be no trains in future to run at this speed?
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Old November 12th, 2016, 08:09 PM   #3125
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Quote:
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And higher speeds do increase costs...

Trains should not run as fast as possible, but as fast as usefull. There is no point in having high speed if in the end you end up just spending more time between trains in the station (as is often the case in France or Italy...)
If the majority of trips are between two big cities with no transfers then speed matters a lot.

If you have to wait between trains then that is the fault of bad scheduling and not that the train is going too fast.
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Old November 13th, 2016, 03:29 PM   #3126
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Trains should not run as fast as possible, but as fast as usefull.
You don't seem to have spend any thought on what is actually useful, neither in this case nor in any other. Yet, you repeat this line which is ultimately hollow and pointless.
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Old November 14th, 2016, 05:37 AM   #3127
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You don't seem to have spend any thought on what is actually useful, neither in this case nor in any other. Yet, you repeat this line which is ultimately hollow and pointless.
This principle underlies what is arguably one of the best railway systems in the world. Yet to you it is hollow and pointless?
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Old November 14th, 2016, 05:40 AM   #3128
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If the majority of trips are between two big cities with no transfers then speed matters a lot.
The majority of the trips in Germany is under 1 hour. There this does not matter that much. People are not willing to pay double to save a few minutes.
Quote:
If you have to wait between trains then that is the fault of bad scheduling and not that the train is going too fast.
But it does illustrate that you can create big gains in travel time with better scheduling, which is a lot cheaper than running at higher speeds.
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Old November 14th, 2016, 05:46 AM   #3129
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I didn't want to make a comparison with other countries as I also think the german railway system is better as a whole...But it is just nonsense for me to invest so much money in a train that can not even use the infrastructure at maximum. Why did Germany build railways capable of 300 km/h if it makes no difference in time comparing with 250 km/h, and there will be no trains in future to run at this speed?
It is not the intention of the DB to use the ICE-4 on those routes that require a 300kph top speed. They have the ICE-3 for that.
DB has a lot of services that do not touch tracks madecfor 300kph, and it is mostly for those that the ICE-4 is intended.
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Old November 14th, 2016, 09:35 AM   #3130
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Quote:
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This principle underlies what is arguably one of the best railway systems in the world. Yet to you it is hollow and pointless?
SBB is one of the best train systems in the world, OK, we all know that. It still is hollow and pointless to pretend that the solutions that made SBB among the best can be applied successfully everywhere else.

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Old November 14th, 2016, 10:01 AM   #3131
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Is it true that the new ICE-4 trains will only be capable of 250 km/h? If that's the case it is a pity to invest over 5 billion in high speed trains that are not even capable to use the existing infrastructure at maximum...
Yes, this is true.

And no, it is not a pity as there are plenty of lines where the top speed is 200 to 250 km/h, which is where the ICE-4 will run. For the high speed lines (such as Frankfurt - Köln), DB will use the ICE 3 and Velaro D trainsets.
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Old November 14th, 2016, 12:36 PM   #3132
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Thank you... for this injection of reality
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Old November 14th, 2016, 01:46 PM   #3133
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If only that were so. The new IC2 trains, which are only capable of 160 kmh, are being deployed on many routes which have considerable segments capable of 200 kmh, and this has led to protests because lines had to be slowed down or alternatively stops abandoned.
Yes, little of DB's network warrants serious high speed trains, we know. But what if in twenty years, when these trains will still be running, a policy of 300 kmh-line building has actually been carried out (unimaginable under present DB and BRD management, but theoretically possible). What if there is demand for extending the Berlin-Cologne line to Brussels or Paris or alternatively London, as would make many new connections possible and shorten overall traveling times decisively? What if some of the ICEs running Hamburg-Vienna via the Rhine Valley are to be shifted to the HSR route Cologne-Frankfurt to save an hour of traveling time?
The answer in all cases would be "Sorry, not enough trains for this", which is the same answer we have been hearing all these years when there were not enough ICE trains around.
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Old November 14th, 2016, 05:04 PM   #3134
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Quote:
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This principle underlies what is arguably one of the best railway systems in the world. Yet to you it is hollow and pointless?
Best in the world, my arse. This approach is a total failure in terms of high-speed. And high-speed is what is needed to connect large cities with several hundred kilometres between them. You can keep wallowing yourself in the cosiness of your small town country. In Germany, however, greater speeds are needed.

Quote:
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It is not the intention of the DB to use the ICE-4 on those routes that require a 300kph top speed. They have the ICE-3 for that.
DB has a lot of services that do not touch tracks madecfor 300kph, and it is mostly for those that the ICE-4 is intended.
That's wrong. Theses trainsets are proposed to form the fleet for ICE line 28 (Berlin-München) which will be the service line with longest portion of high-speeds lines capable for a speed of 300 km/h. And because DB Fern fails to make use of the speed potential, they will scrape past ITF-compliant travel times by a few minutes on almost all legs of the journey. So much for 'not as fast as possible'.
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Old November 14th, 2016, 11:18 PM   #3135
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The majority of the trips in Germany is under 1 hour. There this does not matter that much. People are not willing to pay double to save a few minutes.
Obviously as most passengers are commuters. Pretty sure the traveling pattern is different on ICE trains. At least I'd be very surprised if there was a huge difference between RJ in Austria and ICE and Germany.
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Old November 15th, 2016, 01:03 AM   #3136
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The answer in all cases would be "Sorry, not enough trains for this", which is the same answer we have been hearing all these years when there were not enough ICE trains around.
You are proposing DB to spend boatloads of money to acquire a couple of very high speed trains (300+ km/h), for use in timetables that /might/ require them in the future or for use on infrastructure that /could/ be delivered, 20 years from now?

The same amount of money can give DB more trains, but while they run at a lower top speed (250 km/h), they can utilise infrastructure which exists /today/. This allows DB to provide improvements to their services today: a more modern passenger experience, increased capacity, and so on.

If plans for more high speed lines ever come to fruition, DB can set up a separate tender process to acquire new VHST's if the need arises.
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Old November 15th, 2016, 03:30 PM   #3137
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You are proposing DB to spend boatloads of money to acquire a couple of very high speed trains (300+ km/h), for use in timetables that /might/ require them in the future or for use on infrastructure that /could/ be delivered, 20 years from now?

The same amount of money can give DB more trains, but while they run at a lower top speed (250 km/h), they can utilise infrastructure which exists /today/. This allows DB to provide improvements to their services today: a more modern passenger experience, increased capacity, and so on.

If plans for more high speed lines ever come to fruition, DB can set up a separate tender process to acquire new VHST's if the need arises.
I know that an ICE3 which can run on the Dutch, French, British grid is several times more expensive than an ICE4, and there would be no problem in having a few of those to run Berlin-Cologne, where there is no possibility to run faster than 250 kmh anyways. However to base the lion's share of the fleet on them is another thing. Theoretically, a long-distance strategy of DB's would exist and it would be simple to plan ahead and to manage passenger demand, infrastructure development, and fleet accordingly. But DB's priorities have switched several times. When CEO Mehdorn seriously pushed for 300kmh+ infrastructure, several projects were started that the present CEO Grube finds simply a waste. As stated above, he will have many ICE4s and ICE-Ts, and other mid-speed trains run on the Berlin-Munich HSR. When a few years ago DB could have seriously expanded due to rise in demand, there were no trains around. Now we have new trains, but the market has contracted. When the expensive multi-system Velaros came, they could not be used for the Brussels-London run as planned. Instead they had to compensate lacking rolling stock within Germany.
I know max speeds are not everything on a train. A company should either go for that (SNCF), or a networked system (SBB), or night trains (ÖBB), or comfort, or something. DB has neither very impressive overall speeds, nor a schedule that works like Swiss clockwork so you can rely on catching your connection, nor night trains, nor any longer the most comfortable trains (ICE3 possibly excluded). With the lack of a general strategy, it fails to create a good argument for using trains on long distance.
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Old November 18th, 2016, 03:50 PM   #3138
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ICE4 is intededed to replace ICE1 and ICE2. Both can run as fast as 280kph, and there a number of sections where these trains will run and where 280 or even 300kph is possible. If everything's normal 250kph will be enough most of the time. But hey, this is Deutsche Bahn, totally unreliable! The 30kph higher vmax will still be needed in the future to compensate for delays, same as it is used today. Else you will even have to increase travel times on the timetables to have enough buffer.
So, yes, it's absolutely nonsense to have the ICE4 ordered only with a max speed of 250kph instead of 270 or 280kph.
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Old November 18th, 2016, 07:01 PM   #3139
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Don't forget that some of them can only go 230 km/h...
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Old November 18th, 2016, 10:24 PM   #3140
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So many internet railroad engineer experts in this forum...
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