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Old August 13th, 2017, 04:30 PM   #3221
Kpc21
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And when you have the rare situation with something replacing a bus (usually another bus, but I have recently seen a video about a narrow-gauge train temporarily replacing a bus somewhere in the UK) - would it be then Busersatzverkehr?

A more common situation is when an intersection of streets is closed, so the buses going through it must be rerouted and make a detour, but to provide transportation for the people living close to this intersection (especially the elderly), a replacement bus service based on minibuses (which can make a U-turn without a proper turning loop) is introduced.
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Old August 13th, 2017, 05:19 PM   #3222
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As I predicted this morning Deutsche Bahn has updated the "estimate" on how long the line between Rastatt and Baden-Baden will be closed to any traffic.
Now they are talking about one to two weeks closure" without any prognosis on how long the closure will actually be ...
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Old August 14th, 2017, 01:24 PM   #3223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
... (usually another bus, but I have recently seen a video about a narrow-gauge train temporarily replacing a bus somewhere in the UK) ...
This video?
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Old August 14th, 2017, 02:56 PM   #3224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MHG1023 View Post
As I predicted this morning Deutsche Bahn has updated the "estimate" on how long the line between Rastatt and Baden-Baden will be closed to any traffic.
Now they are talking about one to two weeks closure" without any prognosis on how long the closure will actually be ...


Unbelievable that such a thing is possible today in Western Europe. In the Netherlands a clear timeframe has to be given for such things, otherwise we call that a long-term suspension, mostly caused by the trains itself. See Fyra.


And such news is not quite promising well. It is the way how they suspended the trains between Arlon and Bastogne as well. Now we're 23 years further...
Seems to be the same timeframe as Jember-Situbondo as well. Only for that one there was promising news this May.
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Old August 14th, 2017, 06:28 PM   #3225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
This video?
Exactly

People in Poland usually think that Germany is a well organized country. And it's maybe a little better organized than Poland, but... even the Polish Railway sometimes happens to be better in dealing with crisis situations. Although in this case, it wasn't bad organized at all. There were problems in the beginning, but it's not so easy to suddenly organize a number of buses for a regular replacement service which must go every few minutes.

I don't think the PKP would do this much better, I may even risk guessing that it would be much worse.

From today (and, partially, yesterday), the replacement service along the Rhine river is organized much better. There are regional trains between Karlsruhe and Rastatt, there are special ICEs between Baden-Baden and Basel, some of the ICEs from the north reach Rastatt. Only those from Berlin and Hamburg - the station in Rastatt has, probably, too little capacity to process all the trains. Some end in Karlsruhe, some of them even end in Mannheim. And the local transport between Baden-Baden and Achern is no longer bustituted. The AVG company moved two of their trains to this section of tracks (at the moment of the accident, there was no their trains there at all). Using a very interesting detour through Singen close to the Swiss border and to the Boden lake - very far from the areas where this company normally operate.

With those estimates, it seems they really want to believe that it's nothing so severe that would force closure of this railway line for months (because it's such an crucial section of tracks), but the odds are that it's totally against what they want to believe...
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Old August 15th, 2017, 10:18 AM   #3226
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Is there more information about what exactly happened and why?
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Old August 15th, 2017, 10:42 AM   #3227
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I only know of a rumor so far.
It's said that the new railway tunnel under construction collapsed exactly below the existing track because of water "breaking in".
How it got in or where it originates - I don't know.
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Old August 15th, 2017, 12:06 PM   #3228
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If you speak German, you can read those two threads:
https://www.drehscheibe-online.de/fo...hp?002,8269019
https://www.drehscheibe-online.de/fo...hp?002,8270576

A lot information about it and how the situation also from the passenger information side developed.

For a moment, the passengers of all the trains were advised to take a local bus from Rastatt to Baden-Baden, which goes every two hours on Saturday when it happened, and it isn't even articulated (and it couldn't be articulated even if they just wanted to exchange the bus, due to narrow streets in the residential areas it goes through). In at least one ICE (which ended in Karlsruhe), the passengers were informed that they can get a voucher for a taxi to Baden-Baden at the information counter in Karlsruhe, but when they went there and asked for it, they were refused the voucher, because the DB decided it would be too expensive.

There exist a railway line which could be used as a detour, but it is... being renovated and therefore it is closed for traffic.

And it seems that the operators of freight trains have much bigger problems than passengers now.

Some houses near the place of the accident had to be evacuated.
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Old August 15th, 2017, 08:03 PM   #3229
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The situation is getting worse.

From "KVV Fahrgäste" Facebook group:

Quote:
15.08.2017 - 14:28 Uhr
Karlsruhe/Rastatt (lsw) - An den abgesenkten Gleisen an der Rheintalbahn in Rastatt ist es am Dienstag zu neuen Erdbewegungen gekommen. Damit stehe der bisher genannte Zeitrahmen für die Sperrung bis zum 26. August in Frage, sagte der Konzernbevollmächtigte der Bahn für Baden-Württemberg, Sven Hantel.
Es habe seit Samstag Risse, Erdbewegungen und Wassereintritt an der Tunnelbaustelle gegeben. Mehr könne zur Ursache bisher nicht gesagt werden. Der Schaden am Samstag sei von einem Messgerät und der Baumannschaft gemeldet worden. Der Zugverkehr sei sofort unterbrochen worden.
Tunnel muss mit Beton gefüllt werden
Zur Reparatur der beschädigten Schienen der Rheintalbahn in Rastatt soll der darunterliegende Tunnel auf 50 Metern Länge mit Beton gefüllt und die Bohrmaschine dort wohl aufgegeben werden. Die Stabilisierung des Tunnels sei Grundlage, um die Strecke zu reparieren, sagte Hantel. Es sei nicht möglich, die Bohrmaschine vor einer möglichen Befüllung aus dem Tunnel zu holen. Wann genau der Abschnitt mit Beton befüllt werden könnte und wieviel die Maschine kostet, war zunächst unklar. Die Maßnahme sei ein sehr wahrscheinliches Szenario, hieß es. Oberste Priorität sei, den Bahnverkehr wieder zu ermöglichen, sagte Hantel.
Wie berichtet, hatten sich am Samstagmittag oberhalb einer Tunnelbaustelle die Gleise abgesenkt. Die Strecke wurde gesperrt. Ein Busersatzverkehr fährt zwischen Rastatt und Baden-Baden.
TL/IDSG;DR:

There were some new movements of the ground under the collapsed rails. It's rather unlikely that the tracks will be open according to the currently announced deadline of 26 August. Water was also involved. For now, the reason is not known. The tunnel must now be filled with concrete on the length of 50 metres and the tunnel drilling machines, if I understand well, must be left buried there.

For now, it is not known when the action of filling the tunnel will take place and how much the machine costs. The only certain thing is "Das wird teuer".
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Old August 15th, 2017, 09:09 PM   #3230
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I imagine that also means the end of the Ratstatt tunnel project, or at least one bore of it...
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Old August 15th, 2017, 09:23 PM   #3231
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The filling the tunnel with concrete is done to speed up the time needed to reopen the tracks. The fact that they are doing this, even though it means writing of the very expensive TBM is good news the situation on the line above ground.

It does of course mean a long delay and a large cost increase for the Karlsruhe - Basel NBS.
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Old August 15th, 2017, 11:47 PM   #3232
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At this point, given the long closure, wouldn't it be viable to just open up the whole thing?
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Old August 16th, 2017, 12:20 AM   #3233
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Probably yes. The question is whether the costs of the replacement transport, refunds for passengers for the tickets, reimbursements for the freight trains operators, losses due to lack of those freight trains etc. with a longer closure won't exceed the additional costs of burying the TBM and redesigning the tunnel. But another question is, what they will do after they fill this tunnel with concrete? How will they drill through this concrete (not to mention the buried mass of steel) then to continue the tunnel? This will also be costly.

For me, it looks like a constructing a temporary bypass route around (or above - maybe a kind of bridge) this problematic place could be a good idea. But then a bridge can be very costly (and rather impossible to build in a few weeks) and a bypass next to this place - I don't know if there is room for that at all.
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Old August 16th, 2017, 01:04 AM   #3234
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Hello. Does any one around here haves some piece of information (or old pictures) about the former 71-30 WLABmh 174 and 175 sleeping cars? The ones made by Wagonbau "Hansa" Bremen + by "Orenstein & Koppel".
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Old August 16th, 2017, 02:13 AM   #3235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
At this point, given the long closure, wouldn't it be viable to just open up the whole thing?
what you want will need months/years

at the moment is topic fill the holes, make the ground stable again, build a few meters new tracks and reopen this major main line, does not matter if trains can only travel 60kmh in this area, important is to get it reopened, every single day counts

for future this can be a concept:
https://www.google.de/maps/@48.84344.../data=!3m1!1e3
1. fill up the ramp for the new tracks with material
2. build a bypass on the west side (through the tennis court)
3. dig in the crossing area down, remove the collapesed tunnel, the inserted concrete
4. build the tunnel from the top and the bridge
5. put the existing tracks back, remove the material and build the new tracks

costs money but should be the cheapest way to get 4 tracks in operation in a safe way, should be safe, but first are 2 tracks in operation needed nothing else matters
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Old August 16th, 2017, 09:48 AM   #3236
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If building a bypass in the future will be necessary anyway, why don't do it now? It should be doable in let's say a month and it would probably let avoid a huge increase of the costs of continuing the tunnel construction.
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Old August 16th, 2017, 10:39 AM   #3237
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Apparently the whole reason a tunnel was being built is that the area is densely built up and residents have resisted any plans for widening of the existing rail route or alternative above ground routes. Therefore if you say, just tear down that tennis court, be aware that such widening would result in long application procedures, public hearings, law suits.
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Old August 16th, 2017, 11:33 AM   #3238
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The tunnel is 3km long, no? Reemerges on the NE side of the town. I don't think a tennis court will make any difference.


I do wonder why they didn't just follow an above ground route along the A5 though.

Last edited by 33Hz; August 16th, 2017 at 11:46 AM.
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Old August 16th, 2017, 12:21 PM   #3239
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The tunnel is 3km long, no? Reemerges on the NE side of the town. I don't think a tennis court will make any difference.


I do wonder why they didn't just follow an above ground route along the A5 though.
Wouldn't this amount to bypassing Rastatt? The German public is quite sensitive to that. Any attempt at running a railway line past a town - perhaps including a new suburban station - the way the French and Spaniards do it all the time, leads to an absolutely toxic public debate in Germany.
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Old August 16th, 2017, 01:25 PM   #3240
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Wouldn't this amount to bypassing Rastatt? The German public is quite sensitive to that. Any attempt at running a railway line past a town - perhaps including a new suburban station - the way the French and Spaniards do it all the time, leads to an absolutely toxic public debate in Germany.
It would but I believe ICE's already don't stop at Rastatt and local trains will continue to use the surface line. So probably not so toxic this time.
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