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Old August 26th, 2017, 10:08 PM   #3261
Kpc21
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It seems, it depends on the length of the train and the power of the locomotive.

I am from Poland, so I looked at how it is here. A diesel railway line with possibly long long-distance trains? It's not easy to find one here, but there is one which comes to mind: Gdynia - Hel (it has many passengers only in the summer season, and therefore, supposedly, it's not affordable to electrify it). By the way, quite a picturesque line - there are places, on the Hel peninsula, where you can see the sea through the windows on both sides. There are more picturesque ones in Europe - but if you are in Poland and you want to take a train which goes possibly close to sea, it will be the choice. It's pity that the Przewozy Regionalne (operating regional trains there) is slowly getting rid of their double-decker coaches.

Just now, there are 7 long-distance trains a day there (except for the numerous regional ones), including one EIC (ExpressInterCity), which definitely should be air-conditioned.

This is its composition from 2015:

http://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/vlak.p...antar&rok=2015



It was pulled by two diesels. Which were originally constructed as shunters, so I believe, their power is limited.

But from 2016, it is pulled by a single locomotive borrowed from the Czech railways:

http://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/vlak.p...antar&rok=2016
http://www.vagonweb.cz/razeni/vlak.p...antar&rok=2017



But it has just 7 coaches, it's not a very long train.

So it makes sense that a longer air-conditioned train may demand two locomotives.

Sorry for showing Polish trains in the German thread, it's just an example for comparison.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 04:50 PM   #3262
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http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...-disaster.html

Quote:
EUROPE: ‘The European system of rail logistics is about to collapse’, warned more than 20 trade bodies on September 4 in an open letter to European Transport Commissioner Violeta Bulc and German Federal Transport Minister Alexander Dobrindt. The letter was copied to seven other transport ministers and Josef Doppelbauer, Executive Director of the European Agency for Railways.

The letter was issued by associations including the European Rail Freight Association, logistics body CLECAT and the International Union of Wagon Keepers. It urged action to mitigate the effects on rail freight and the wider logistics sector of the blockage to the Rhein Valley main lien by the tunnel collapse at Rastatt, south of Karlsruhe in western Germany, on August 12, which has blocked European Freight Corridor 1 until October 7, according to infrastructure manager DB Netz.

The associations said that by that date, railway logistics will have suffered ‘immense damage’. The letter disputes the claim made by railway infrastructure managers that 150 of the 200 daily freight trains that usually use the Rhein corridor could be re-routed via various routes including Stuttgart and Singen in Germany, the Brenner corridor in Austria and the Alsace region of France. The letter asserts that in practice only a quarter are being successfully diverted, and for intermodal traffic the associations claim this figure is just 15%.

According to the letter, one major problem in diverting trains is a lack of available and qualified drivers for the alternative routes, along with national rules which, for example, prevent German-speaking drivers operating trains in France.

The associations propose a series of short-term measures to try to mitigate the crisis. These include:

-establishment of a task force at ministerial and/or EU level with crisis competencies, which includes infrastructure managers;
-provision of support to operators to perform short-term reinforcement of the driver pool on the diversionary routes;
-simplification of operating procedures on diversionary routes, co-ordinated by ERA;
-implementation of a special commission for ‘the short-term review of the largest and most serious freight traffic blockade in recent decades’.
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Old September 5th, 2017, 08:47 PM   #3263
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The interesting thing is that despite ERA already working on harmonising national rules for decades now and the introduction of ERTMS some 20 years ago we are no closer to interoperability then we were 30 years ago. Actually ERTMS may have made it worse for now, because it puts al kinds of limitations on changes to existing national systems and rules, bringing improvements to them to a near halt.

The problem with diverted trains is not only that qualified drivers may not be certified for either the route or the equipment, which could be solved by having a route qualified driver piloting a equipment qualified driver could be an option, but also the equipment used. The annoying solution is cooperation: Switch locomotives, create as long as possible trains by combining several diverted train into one and have the qualified drivers only drive the diversion. Oh no, we can't do that, because all those competing operators don't like to cooperate with each other.
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Old September 6th, 2017, 04:40 AM   #3264
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In Poland it happened many times that one of the private freight carriers borrowed a diesel locomotive to a public passenger carrier e.g. in case of power supply problems...

It's what you often do in case of problems.
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Old September 9th, 2017, 01:13 AM   #3265
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From Monday, there are some improvements and additional rides in the replacement service on the Rhine valley railway because of the school year start in Baden-Württemberg.
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Old September 10th, 2017, 09:24 PM   #3266
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The aborted Munich 21 called for a thru tunnel under Munich Hbf for long distance services. Was the HS corridor from Munich to Berlin intended to approach the tunnel station from east or from west?
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Old September 10th, 2017, 09:52 PM   #3267
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AFAIK, that corridor has been built exactly as planned, using the upgraded line to Ingolstadt; thus coming in from north-west.

I doubt a long distance tunnel would be useful in Munich, most services terminate there or would require a change anyway.

Frankfurt badly needs it, after Stuttgart 21 it will be the last main node with a lot of through traffic and a terminal station.
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Old September 10th, 2017, 10:14 PM   #3268
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Actually what's the progress with Stuttgart-Ulm new high speed line? Both English and German Wikipedia is stating that all structures will be finished in 2018. I wonder if that still corresponds to reality. Haven't heard about this project for some time...
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Old September 10th, 2017, 10:43 PM   #3269
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Bahn spokesman says „finished 2021/2022“. I think you can read Deutsch, so here you go:
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/news/wirt...0608-99-769379

Other news:
http://www.bahnprojekt-stuttgart-ulm.../archiv-suche/

=)
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Old September 10th, 2017, 10:53 PM   #3270
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Thanks. Hopefully at least this date will be true...

After writing my question I realised that the line probably can't work without Stuttgart 21 also being finished and the date for that is not before 2021.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 05:14 AM   #3271
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@Wilhem275: I believe that Frankfurt Flughafen Fernbahnhof is the solution meant for Frankfurt. Don't remember ever reading about making Frankfurt Hbf a thru station actually.

Munich-Ingolstadt... it's just that the current solution seems very much a stop gap measure to me. I'm wondering if long term the idea was instead to go on with a new alignment south of Ingolstadt, following the A9 alignment and entering Munich from east.

For domestic long distance traffic, accessing Munich from east would result in saving the time for turning the train, the potential of stopping at or passing thru the airport (a spur would be needed) and a potential direct connection to the Brenner axis (for freight) bypassing the Munich node.

Last edited by touya; September 12th, 2017 at 05:22 AM.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 06:42 AM   #3272
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Frankfurt Flughafen is an effective but partial solution. It works well for trains travelling "along the Rhine", but it won't do much for any other connection.

This map helps:


(Wikipedia)

You can see that Frankfurt is in the middle of an X between Cologne, Mannheim (Basel), Fulda (Hamburg/Berlin) and Würzburg (Munich).
All these branches are important and need frequent direct connections between each other.

Frankfurt Flughafen solved the Mannheim - Cologne link.
All crossing connections need to go through the city and lose an awful amount of time; not just because of reversing, but also due to the loooow speeds to approach the station.
Cologne - FF Flughafen takes just 50'; but from there you need more than 30' just to reach Hanau, on the eastern side, and be actually out of the Frankfurt area.

There has been a Frankfurt 21 project, to build an underground station and a through tunnel, but I don't think it ever made it out of the wishlist.

I think it would be a very important project together with a new line towards Fulda - Erfurt, then you'd have a real HS network to Berlin and Hamburg.


About Munich, there are two reasons to limit the potential for through connections.
One is geographical: all internal long distance services are pointing to cities in a north-western direction from Munich. Everything has to pass through Stuttgart or Nürnberg. Following the A9 would be a path far from optimal, the most direct route would be a straight line between Ingolstadt and Dachau.

The other limit is that most services would terminate in Munich in all cases, so switching direction is not a big deal.
This is because the main connections to Munich from east and south come from cities which are quite far away (Wien and Verona/Bologna), so there's little demand for merging those services with some internal ICE route. An 8+ hour direct connection has not much appeal today, you can do it for just a bunch of trains in one day, not enough to justify a tunnel.
Internal connections wouldn't pass through Munich anyway, too far from everything.

Freight is already ok, there are two bypassing routes around the city.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 10:25 AM   #3273
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New underground stations in Germany have been an idea sometimes in 1990s.
Most of them died around ca. 2000 because those new underground stations aren't the solution one need to cope with all the traffic there is.

The project has been named Köln 21, München 21, Frankfurt 21 etc. etc. (21st century!) where there should have been an underground ICE-station.

Only Stuttgart, Hamburg Altona and Lindau somewhat made it to proper projects out of that list. Every other project had been withdrawn some years ago.
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Old September 12th, 2017, 03:55 PM   #3274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
There has been a Frankfurt 21 project, to build an underground station and a through tunnel, but I don't think it ever made it out of the wishlist.

I think it would be a very important project together with a new line towards Fulda - Erfurt, then you'd have a real HS network to Berlin and Hamburg.


Absolutely correct. Frankfurt Hbf is the bottleneck of HSR-network in Germany. Frankfurt 21 would have been fare more important than Stuttgart 21 is. The big mistake of the 21-projects was, that they have been too ambitious. It was planned to subsitute every surface track by tunnels. The former railway-area should refinance the Project, building Offices etc.


Now, after the big trouble concerning Stuttgart 21, a so called Kombilösung (combinated solution) turned out to would be better. Leave local trains at the surface mainly and create a tunnel for HSR only.


Recently there was an article in the Journal Eisenbahntechnische Rundschau, saying besides the mentioned HSR Frankfurt-Fulda and other projects in the Rhein-Main-Region (additional Bridge over Main) it might be useful to have a two-track tunnel connecting Ostbahnhof and Hauptbahnhof in Frankfurt. A new two platform ICE-Station could be constructed under the Mainzer Landstraße at Hauptbahnhof.


This is far behind the ambitious Frankfurt 21-project, but it would be useful for the whole german HSR-network.


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Old September 13th, 2017, 06:41 AM   #3275
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Yes, the original F-21 project would have been beautiful but also much more complicated...



After all, S-Bahn is already in a through tunnel, RB/RE services are just needed to reach the city, so only long distance trains really need a fast through line.


Apart from the underground station it is pretty clear that all the surrounding network is very poor for ICE services.

Here is another Wikipedia map, to which I added in green most of the 200 km/h stretches (not all) and in blue the NBS needed to complete the HSR network:




Frankfurt is exactly in the middle of Germany's black spot.

I also think that DB and the federal government should show some courage and push for faster direct services and lines.
Today's ICE is basically an IC, and the IC is doing the IRE job. Too many stops, and the direct Sprinters are just random services. The average speed is very low compared with countries where HSR is a success (and Italy is not much different from Germany in terms of midsize cities spread all over the country).

A Berlin - Frankfurt ICE should not call at places like Bitterfeld, Fulda, Hanau... that service must exist, but it's an IC job.

So the missing lines should be built as straight as possible. Skip Fulda, skip Darmstadt, don't even touch Hanau...
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Old September 13th, 2017, 12:12 PM   #3276
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There are ICE services from Eastern Germany to Frankfurt Flughafen completely avoiding Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof, calling in F Süd and F Flughafen. Süd has obviously a worse location than the Hbf., however, has outstanding S- and U-Bahn connections.
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Old September 13th, 2017, 01:18 PM   #3277
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The problem with Frankfurt is, that even the costs for just a tunnel for long-distance trains would far exceed the benefits. From Ostbahnhof trains would have to pass through the city center, crossing several skyscraper footings and U- and S-Bahn lines (so you would have to dig very very deep - making it a disaster for driving dynamics). Coming from Südbahnhof or digging under the river Main would still require to dig very deep and involves curves so narrow, that the time benefit is near zero. Ideas of moving the main station to Südbahnhof would even be much more expensive (Südbahnhof would need extremely more capacity and much more local public transport than today, which could only be provided by several deep tunnels) with overall a rather negative benefit.
Additionally the tracks in and around Frankfurt are so highly overutilized by all kinds of traffic, that taking care about long-distance trains only wouldn't solve the problems at all.
With very good reason, utmost priority now is on the "Frankfurt RheinMain plus" project. This includes not only a modification on the ramps in the approach to the terminus (resulting in higher travel speeds and much higher capacity), but also an upgrade from 4 to 6 tracks between Hauptbahnhof and Stadion (where the HSLs to Cologne and prospectively Mannheim begin) - the two new tracks dedicated for long-distance trains and with higher speed limit than the current tracks - as well as an upgrade from 2 to 4 tracks between Hauptbahnhof and Südbahnhof. And not to forget the HSLs to Mannheim and between Hanau and Fulda - Erfurt and maybe Würzburg, which are in planning stage again.
Compared to this project bundle, the additional time benefit even of a direct tunnel from Ostbahnhof to Hauptbahnhof (which in reality is nearly impossible physically, as depicted above) wouldn't be much higher than 1 or 2 minutes. That makes it very unlikely that such a tunnel will be built during the lifetime of anyone of us. So we will have to live with the current terminus in Frankfurt. But I guess this won't be too much of a problem. Even compared to other large stations the percentage of people staying in the train is quite low in Frankfurt. The vast majority of long distance passengers in Frankfurt is changing trains or even starting/ending their journey there. Keep in mind, that switching directions is not a big deal anymore today and not too time consuming, and the HSL gap within Frankfurt itself (where high speed limits on the tracks aren't necessary at all because this is where all trains even including sprinter services are still accelerating / decelerating) will be comparable to other large main stations like Nürnberg, Köln, Stuttgart or Hannover. So I guess we can live with that single terminus for the time being.
A major gap will still remain between Südbahnhof and the HSL(s) east of Hanau, and that's the only section where I can imagine a new project for long distance trains in the mid- or long-term future. Unfortunately the "Nordmaininsche S-Bahn" neither has any benefit for long distance trains (the S-Bahn running on dedicated tracks will replace only 2 regional trains per hour on the existing tracks, and travel speeds don't change at all) nor does it help to increase the chances for such a new project (rather the opposite). But still, soon there might come the time when DB and politicians realise that you have to increase capacity and speeds for long distance trains there. The speed even of the existing tracks could quite easily be increased to 200-230kph between Ostbahnhof and Hanau Hbf and/or between Offenbach and Hanau-Steinheim (and to 160kph between Südbahnhof and Offenbach). But you will need completely new tracks for long distance trains to pass Hanau Hauptbahnhof with higher speeds and proper capacity. That is where a focus for future HSR projects in Rhein-Main is necessary.
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Last edited by Rohne; September 13th, 2017 at 01:55 PM.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 02:00 PM   #3278
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Only Stuttgart, Hamburg Altona and Lindau somewhat made it to proper projects out of that list. Every other project had been withdrawn some years ago.
Is there more info regarding the Lindau21 project? What is it about? New station outside the island? Tunnel from the island to the mainland? In what stage is this project, when it is expected to be completed?
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Old September 14th, 2017, 05:04 PM   #3279
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Connecting Frankfrut to the Wuzburg-Hannover HSL is a priority, the sector is really bad as it is today: curvy, slow, with limited local service expansion possibilities due to track congestion with ICEs and ICs etc.
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Old September 14th, 2017, 06:47 PM   #3280
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Quote:
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Is there more info regarding the Lindau21 project? What is it about? New station outside the island? Tunnel from the island to the mainland? In what stage is this project, when it is expected to be completed?
They're planning to build a new main station at Reutin, currently a freight yard. The current Lindau Hbf will be degraded to a station for regional trains.
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