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Old November 14th, 2017, 05:50 AM   #3301
JonBlack95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
In Poland, there are still people believing that the railway in Germany works like a Swiss clock and the German trains have no delays at all, on the contrary to the Polish railway
I'm Malaysian, and I used to sorta put DB and SBB on a pedestal with regards to on-time performance as compared to our own Malayan Railways (KTM).

Of course now I'm a bit more knowledgeable about DB's problems, but my personal experience with them have been alright. .

But I still don't quite understand why the ICE lines are tightly integrated with the existing mainline tracks instead of having segregated lines.
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Old November 14th, 2017, 03:08 PM   #3302
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But I still don't quite understand why the ICE lines are tightly integrated with the existing mainline tracks instead of having segregated lines.
There are two reasons for this.

First the potentials of the high speed technology are grossly underestimated in Germany. The implementation of this technology is furthermore undermined by parochial decision making and an irrational desire to save costs. The results are short truly high speed section.

Second there is a demand for fast services to large cities in towns that can't be linked by a high speed line at reasonable cost. That makes it necessary to run classic compatible services on high speed lines, which require a certain degree of network integration.
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Old November 14th, 2017, 08:17 PM   #3303
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I'm more the person who sees the advantages of integration, however, there is a difference between integration and the lack of upgrading. And that last thing is also a problem in Germany, at least, in recent years on less-prioritized lines. A lot of lines could be upgraded and the speed can also be upgraded with the right implementation: straighten tracks or add a third and fourth rail separating local and express traffic. The express traffic then can pass safely at very high speeds (>200).

Germany is not the only country with such problems, more countries seem to be reluctant in proper investment in railways on longer distances, not looking at the full potential of international links, too much listening to nimby's and throwing new signalling systems in the fridge causing the fastest trains to be even as slow as the fastest trains in Ethiopia (and it's TRUE!). Sounds typically Dutch. That's the reason why the ICE to Amsterdam is a very slow train. Two, no, at least three and actually four exceptionally powerful regions, only to be connected by a snail trail and speeding up when 75% of the potential has already been passed by (seen from Amsterdam).
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Old November 14th, 2017, 09:15 PM   #3304
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I have heard from a Dutch person that the trains in the Netherlands are never late

No idea if he was right. But in Germany they are indeed sometimes late.

In Poland they happen to be maybe slightly more often late, but:
- during the last two hurricanes, Germans were suspending the railway traffic in whole Bundesländer; in Poland we had big delays and detours, maybe the passengers of some trains had to wait many hours until they reached their destinations - but generally, everything worked so well as it was technically possible under such conditions and if anything was suspended than it was some single trains instead of whole voivodeships
- on the other hand, the trains in Germany are simply much more frequent then in Poland, in Poland there is often only one or two trains in a day serving the specific connection, while Germans often have hourly service (or even more frequent) even on long-distance routes, this is a big power of the German railways because when there are problems with one train, the passengers can simply take the next one
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Old November 14th, 2017, 10:58 PM   #3305
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at least maintenance here is better than in Germany. That's the reason why we score good in punctuality. And because we close tracks at the slightest observations. Prevention of any problem is generally very good in the Netherlands. But that is for the short term, plans for the long term are bleak since about five years.

Belgians have a railway system more comparable to the Polish ones: they always keep driving, although with higher frequencies than Poland but with escalating delays. Plans are more ambitious than their neighbours north of them. And it happens to have the same 3000V system as the Polish have. Something the Dutch are constantly debating about (1500V is not adequate for higher speeds, 3000V is better though still easy to implement), we polder a lot, but it does not come to a result.

Funny is that the Belgians already plan to phase out 3000V in favour of 25kV AC, we'll just keep running behind until they see a dilapidated track
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Old November 14th, 2017, 11:07 PM   #3306
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We have no plans to replace the 3000V system, at the exception of line 162 between Namur and Luxembourg. Arlon-Luxembourg is for summer 2018.
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Old November 14th, 2017, 11:49 PM   #3307
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3 kV is also not adequate for high speeds, and the need to start moving to a system based on a higher voltage is one of the reasons why it's so difficult to finally start constructing a real high speed railway system in Poland.

It's no doubt it's needed, as nowadays, the highest speed on the Polish railway network is 200 km/h, only on a part of one route (see the map: http://www.plk-sa.pl/files/public/us...nie_ILK_RW.pdf) and this is no longer considered high-speed for the European and world standards nowadays.
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Old November 15th, 2017, 01:58 AM   #3308
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Short term: breaking all lines in Frankfurt(M)Hbf
Long term: establishing a segregated network for long distance services in the core of the network. That core are the routes from Frankfurt(M) to Hamburg, from Frankfurt(M) to Duisburg and from Frankfurt(M) to München via Stuttgart.
This segregation is intended to help the local services whose performance suffers almost entirely from making way for the fast trains. They would be remarkably reliable once they are the top dog on their tracks.
Frankfurt also desperately needs a tunnel from the east to F-Hbf with a HSR station under the ground.
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Old November 16th, 2017, 10:25 AM   #3309
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as already stated some weeks ago, this tunnel is unrealistic. Efforts have to be concentrated on widening and accelerating the approaches from Stadion and Hanau, as these will not only save much more time but also increase capacity and thus help to stabilize the train schedules.
A big mistake by Deutsche Bahn and the federal government was that after reunification they solely focussed on infrastructure investments in eastern germany and - regarding rail - especially Berlin, and did not give a shit about the already existing bottlenecks in the western part. Besides Frankfurt and some missing HGV lines throughout the country (Frankfurt-Fulda, Frankfurt-Mannheim, Stuttgart-Ulm-Augsburg, Karlsruhe-Basel, Frankfurt-Würzburg-Nürnberg, Hannover-Hamburg and Hannover-Dortmund - only some of which are currently in planning or even u/c) it's also the rail junctions in Köln, Hannover, Hamburg, Mannheim, München and - yes - Stuttgart that need great investments.
But the most impacting junction might be Frankfurt, since more than half of all long distance lines call there and nearly every single train gets delayed, with the effect that these delays are "distributed" through the whole country still messing up the schedules 100s of kms away.
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Old November 16th, 2017, 04:40 PM   #3310
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Aren't You guys a bit too critical regarding state of railways in Germany? Of course there are some problems, there are issues to be solved and investments to be made but still German Railways offer level which in most parts of Europe is far from reach and many countries would love to have level of services provided in Germany
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Old November 16th, 2017, 04:54 PM   #3311
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comparing to most other, poorer countries results in Germany being superior in means of transportation and the accessibility of that transportation in all corners of the country. In that sense Germany has a better system than, say, France, the USA or China. If it is about a long-term strategy: comparable to most of Europe, with small tweaks here and there, nothing really big though. But if it is maintenance and succeeding projects: Germany is doing bad for it's income and wealth level. If their only solution is tolling roads but just for foreigners in the central core of Europe, then something is going wrong.
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Prohibit the construction of new single-family dwellings without stacking apartments in Amsterdam (A10), Rotterdam (motorway ring), The Hague, Utrecht (outer ring), Eindhoven (ring), Tilburg (ringbanen) and Groningen (provincial ring)!

And prohibit the use of agricultural land for new dwellings!

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Old November 16th, 2017, 09:15 PM   #3312
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If it is about a long-term strategy: comparable to most of Europe, with small tweaks here and there, nothing really big though. But if it is maintenance and succeeding projects: Germany is doing bad for it's income and wealth level. If their only solution is tolling roads but just for foreigners in the central core of Europe, then something is going wrong.
Yet are You sure that other western European countries do really have some impressive rail network development strategy? If not Brexit spurring need for economy stimulation HS2 in UK would be still debated yet despite that bottleneck in East Croydon will still generate delays to half of Brighton Main Line services. France plunged into huge debts to complete HS network at an expense of conventional network. Spain is struggling to complete its old plans and patch its fragmented network together – Germany has a comprehensive network just like Italy where conventional network is only expanded by AV/AC sections. And last but not least Scandinavia where time flows in completely different way and apart from additional tracks in centre Stockholm development plans are almost the same as 10-20 year ago. Oslo – Honefoss cut off on Bergensbane is still far from fruition, Sweden still plans it Y HS line between 3 major cities and that’s about it. So I think that German Railways are doing what can be done within budget and without unnecessarily plunging into debt as in other countries with spectacular investments. Bear in mind that let alone Stuttgart 21 project which for me is complete waste of public money will suck 10 billion euro which is 2/3 of what Poland is set to invest into railway infrastructure development in 2014-2020 budget! Think how much could be done if this megalomania project would be cancelled. It’s not about lack of money it’s more about how they are spent that makes present development look weak
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Old November 16th, 2017, 11:55 PM   #3313
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as already stated some weeks ago, this tunnel is unrealistic. Efforts have to be concentrated on widening and accelerating the approaches from Stadion and Hanau, as these will not only save much more time but also increase capacity and thus help to stabilize the train schedules.
A big mistake by Deutsche Bahn and the federal government was that after reunification they solely focussed on infrastructure investments in eastern germany and - regarding rail - especially Berlin, and did not give a shit about the already existing bottlenecks in the western part. Besides Frankfurt and some missing HGV lines throughout the country (Frankfurt-Fulda, Frankfurt-Mannheim, Stuttgart-Ulm-Augsburg, Karlsruhe-Basel, Frankfurt-Würzburg-Nürnberg, Hannover-Hamburg and Hannover-Dortmund - only some of which are currently in planning or even u/c) it's also the rail junctions in Köln, Hannover, Hamburg, Mannheim, München and - yes - Stuttgart that need great investments.
But the most impacting junction might be Frankfurt, since more than half of all long distance lines call there and nearly every single train gets delayed, with the effect that these delays are "distributed" through the whole country still messing up the schedules 100s of kms away.
I do not think it should be that hard, there must just be modesty in the project.

2 tracks which go into 6 platforms underground for pass-through would provide more capacity than 20 overground. With it, HSR could mainly be diverted there, with regional rail going to overground station.

There is also no need to stop anywhere else around Frankfurt than HBF, so no need to have alignment with Ostbahnhof or something.

They could decommission some on the north part, since the area is getting redeveloped, they could sell it to finance a small part of the investment. DB itself is going to build a new tower just north of the station.

I believe they still have service station on the south side, where they could concentrate them.
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Old November 17th, 2017, 07:28 PM   #3314
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So I think that German Railways are doing what can be done within budget and without unnecessarily plunging into debt as in other countries with spectacular investments.
Do bilateral agreements between EU member states count as "unnecessarily plunging into debt with spectacular investments" too? Because I'm afraid to say, Germany does not score well at all with regards to the commitments they've freely taken:

1) The Betuwelijn in the Netherlands has been ready since 2007, but the german approach was first delayed to "not before 2015", then finally started (in year 2016) for a completion date of 2024 (17 years after it would have been nice to have it in first place!).

2) Pretty much the same is happening these days with the Fehmarn Belt Fixed Link, with Germany delaying the approval process for their part of work on the access line to "not before 2015", while Denmark has already started assigning contracts to subcontractors for the tunnel.

3) The north access line of the Brenner base tunnel is to be completed... nobody knows when. The Federal infrastructure plan 2030 only talks about the Kufstein - Brannenburg. The Brannenburg - Rosenheim - Munich part is in its infancy, officially because "Italy must first prove they can build the southern approach". Italy who meanwhile is working actively on the BBT, has green lighted the Fortezza - Ponte Gardena section and is about to green light the Bolzano and Trento node bypasses and the approach into Verona. Not to talk about Austria who already completed the Lower Inn Valley railway in 2012...

4) The Karlsruhe - Basel stretch won't be completed before year 203x, and this stretch, much like 1) above, is right in the middle of the all-important TEN-T Rhine-Alpine corridor.

If Germany does not want to keep building the European high-speed/core network they can just say it, the other countries will happily act consequently and take less debt. :-)
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Old November 18th, 2017, 01:49 AM   #3315
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1) The Betuwelijn in the Netherlands has been ready since 2007, but the german approach was first delayed to "not before 2015", then finally started (in year 2016) for a completion date of 2024 (17 years after it would have been nice to have it in first place!).
The Betuwelijn is in service since the 1880s actually. What you mean is the Betuweroute. These are different lines which mustn't be confused.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 11:31 AM   #3316
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Ok, thanks for the correction. I thought Betuwelijn was the Dutch name.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 09:26 PM   #3317
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That's indeed how almost everyone calls it here.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 10:41 PM   #3318
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Ditto in Britain too. Some people just can't get their heads around the fact that DB suffer from the same issues as we do here.

Seriously?????

AS someone who uses both German and UK railways regularly, there is no comparison.

The last two trains I went to catch in the UK were both canceled at the last minute.

UK intercity trains still have slam doors
Toilets with flaps onto the tracks
The most convoluted ticketing system I've ever had the misfortune to use.
The most expensive tickets.
Paper cards for reservations?
5 abreast seating on British loading gauge
No national discount card
No access to the dining car without a first class ticket????
Keeping departure platforms a mystery until the last second
Pacers.

I could go on

In fact the only thing British railways seem to pour any sort of resources into is ticket checking.
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Old November 18th, 2017, 11:20 PM   #3319
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With regards to the coaching stock of the Inter City 125 units, at least these units are set to be replaced by the new Hitachi units.

With regards to fitting out trains with five abreast seating plans, I am 100 per cent with you on this point. The UK loading gauge is too narrow for five abreast seats.

As for the Pacer units, at least these are now to be replaced.
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Old November 19th, 2017, 08:35 AM   #3320
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Seriously?????

AS someone who uses both German and UK railways regularly, there is no comparison.

The last two trains I went to catch in the UK were both canceled at the last minute.

UK intercity trains still have slam doors
Toilets with flaps onto the tracks
The most convoluted ticketing system I've ever had the misfortune to use.
The most expensive tickets.
Paper cards for reservations?
5 abreast seating on British loading gauge
No national discount card
No access to the dining car without a first class ticket????
Keeping departure platforms a mystery until the last second
Pacers.

I could go on

In fact the only thing British railways seem to pour any sort of resources into is ticket checking.
The pacers are the only shame of the British railways actually. All the others points are invalid for either being historic relics which will be discarded sooner or later anyway or for not being a disadvantage at all. Discount cards for instance don't do any railway a favour. They work as an entrance barrier to the system which keeps occasional users off.

What you don't mention in your one-sided review is that Britain has a proper high speed line which provides dedicated end-to-end infrastructure for high speed services only. Britain also has a TOC which is fully committed to high speed rail services, a TOC which is not afraid of purchasing the right trainsets to make use of the infrastructure provided. Try finding one of these over here in Germany.
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