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Old November 20th, 2017, 08:00 PM   #3341
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In the same time You seems to forget that DB is in process of obtaining new ICE4 fleet which will replace ICE1 and ICE2 sets which will leave ICET as oldest in fast long distance fleet.
The ICE1 fleet won't disappear entirely, at least not too soon. Some of these sets will be shortened and refitted. They are badly needed after all as DB Fern is chronically short on rolling stock.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 08:11 PM   #3342
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The UK ticketing system is Byzantine though, if you know your way around it and plan well some time in advance you can get some very cheap long distance fares but the walk-on flexible tickets can often be ridiculous to the extent they are only really used by business travelers getting the cost paid for them and tourists who don't know the system who end up with a big shock!

Season tickets for commuting are also very expensive, especially into London where they can be 2-3x the price of similar distances into other cities, no doubt about that.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 08:39 PM   #3343
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The difference is that in Britain one needs a fully flexible ticket for travel in peak hours only while in Germany it is needed all the time. Off-peak tickets in Britain are significantly less expensive. In fact, tickets in Britain can be less expensive than in Germany. An off-peak return-ticket from Paddington to Maidenhead costs £12,40, two single tickets Weissenfels-Leipzig €15,20. That doesn't look like the 'most expensive tickets in Europe' to me.
Yet You are comparing off peak ticket for Britain with any time ticket in Germany. But here difference doesn't end as above mentioned ticket for Germany is from Mitteldeutschen Verkehrsverbund range and it envisages one trip within 5 tariff zones (7,6 euro) made within 3 hours using any form of transport so You can hop on bus in starting point than use train and in Lepizig continue by a tram. Of course for 17,5 euro You can buy anytime day travel card for that zones. For comparison specified connection in Britain although from Maidenhead to London costs 21,9 pound for anytime return and 28,4 for day anytime travel card, off peak travel card is 18,4 sterling.

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The ICE1 fleet won't disappear entirely, at least not too soon. Some of these sets will be shortened and refitted. They are badly needed after all as DB Fern is chronically short on rolling stock.
Frankly I haven't heard about such scenario and after ICE4 certification process was finished series production should soon diminish stock shortages. Although we will see what future will bring and some cascades of former ICE to IC segment may be the case.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 11:39 PM   #3344
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Yet You are comparing off peak ticket for Britain with any time ticket in Germany. But here difference doesn't end as above mentioned ticket for Germany is from Mitteldeutschen Verkehrsverbund range and it envisages one trip within 5 tariff zones (7,6 euro) made within 3 hours using any form of transport so You can hop on bus in starting point than use train and in Lepizig continue by a tram. Of course for 17,5 euro You can buy anytime day travel card for that zones. For comparison specified connection in Britain although from Maidenhead to London costs 21,9 pound for anytime return and 28,4 for day anytime travel card, off peak travel card is 18,4 sterling.
Do you really think that picking the most expensive ticket makes this comparison fair? You actually do want to make British railways look bad, don't you.
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Old November 20th, 2017, 11:53 PM   #3345
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It's one reason to do away with those very expensive tickets, even if few people actually pay those prices is not good PR to have them available to be used as an example. I don't think going for the extreme of single per km pricing for every trip around the country no matter what the demand is the answer but probably the gap between highest and lowest fares should be reduced.

Purely demand based pricing works well for airlines, and maybe for the longer intercity train trips but for more local/regional services people want the convenience of being able to turn up without planning weeks ahead and not getting gouged on price.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 12:53 AM   #3346
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Do you really think that picking the most expensive ticket makes this comparison fair? You actually do want to make British railways look bad, don't you.
No I am just comparing what is comparable. Of course You can be lucky enough to live near Paddington station and go to Maidenhead near railway station but most probably this won't be the case and at least 2 x 2,4 pounds for tube needs to be added to Your off peak return calculation (assuming that You have Oyster which is/was additional 5 sterling) while in Germany You don't need to pay such ransom as rail ticket which You have mentioned is valid also on busses and trams – it is so simple that almost boring. Ticketing in Britain is a pure madness and lucky those who live in TfL integrated area, so I don’t need to make British railways look bad as they simply suck in this field. My favourite ticket is "not via Clapham Junction" – boy you can have a lot of 'fun' with those
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Old November 21st, 2017, 04:36 AM   #3347
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No I am just comparing what is comparable. Of course You can be lucky enough to live near Paddington station and go to Maidenhead near railway station but most probably this won't be the case and at least 2 x 2,4 pounds for tube needs to be added to Your off peak return calculation (assuming that You have Oyster which is/was additional 5 sterling) while in Germany You don't need to pay such ransom as rail ticket which You have mentioned is valid also on busses and trams – it is so simple that almost boring. Ticketing in Britain is a pure madness and lucky those who live in TfL integrated area, so I don’t need to make British railways look bad as they simply suck in this field. My favourite ticket is "not via Clapham Junction" – boy you can have a lot of 'fun' with those
If you really want to make a correct comparison you must compare average yield. Take total ticket revenue, dividi by total passengerkm. And you get the average “price per km” a passenger pays.
The authors of this report did just that:
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/sites...nal-report.pdf
See page 14. The result is rather unexpected...
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Old November 21st, 2017, 03:22 PM   #3348
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That does still show that the UK is the second most expensive in Europe on average. Though Germany really is not that far behind at all.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 06:50 PM   #3349
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A while ago The Man in Seat 61 did a comparison of rail ticket prices between the UK and other countries, which is definitely worth a read.

The conclusion:
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So the next time someone says (or you read) "Britain has the highest rail fares in Europe", you'll know this is only 15% of the story. The other 85% is that we have similar or even cheaper fares, too. The big picture is that Britain has the most commercially aggressive fares in Europe, with the highest fares designed to get maximum revenue from business travel, and some of the lowest fares designed to get more revenue by filling more seats. This is exactly what airlines have known, and been doing, for decades. But don't take my word for it, see for yourself, check some UK train fares at www.nationalrail.co.uk...
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Old November 21st, 2017, 07:15 PM   #3350
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That is why the analysis above ironed out the differences between those buying in advance and those travelling on the day by simply looking at the outcome for the market as a whole by using revenue per passenger km. So yeah, overall despite being able to get bargains, the cost to the UK consumer makes the UK rail system the second most expensive in Europe behind Austria.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 08:11 PM   #3351
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The Austrian system seems particularly expensive to run overall, that report also looked at the % of costs covered by fares, nowhere do the fares cover all costs but in 2012 Germany was the highest at nearly 70% followed by UK at 60% (probably more similar to Germany by now as fares have risen and subsidies fallen since then) while Austria only covered less than 40% of costs with fare receipts which is more like the EU average even with the highest per km tickets.

Some of the CEE countries get virtually nothing from fares, they might as well make the system free of charge getting so little.

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Old November 21st, 2017, 08:18 PM   #3352
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To me, that makes the UK and German railways look like very sustainable businesses. More likely to have expansion or at least maintenance of status quo when you're covering that much of your costs.

Plus the modal split/reliance on rail is pretty good in both countries as well.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 08:29 PM   #3353
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More expansion and investment here would be nice. It is coming I guess with HS2 which should make a big difference nationally, Crossrail opening imminently etc and other various smaller projects but it's frustrating to see such long time scales for those things. I guess I'll just have to be patient!
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Old November 21st, 2017, 08:39 PM   #3354
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More expansion and investment here would be nice. It is coming I guess with HS2 which should make a big difference nationally, Crossrail opening imminently etc and other various smaller projects but it's frustrating to see such long time scales for those things. I guess I'll just have to be patient!
You've got some nice smaller projects ongoing - the varsity rail line for instance just so that the toffs from Oxbridge can meet in Bletchley.

But this is a bit off-topic. Should be taken to the UK rail section.
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Old November 21st, 2017, 09:13 PM   #3355
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The Austrian system seems particularly expensive to run overall, that report also looked at the % of costs covered by fares,
I assume that Austria figures are highly influenced by high investments into infrastructure and rolling stock replacement. Modernising to 200 km/h with double tracking in mountains means mostly tunnelling, in mentioned time also Wien Junction was completely rebuild while train operator bought huge number of Railjet sets. This boosted the figures but will benefit country in future.

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Some of the CEE countries get virtually nothing from fares, they might as well make the system free of charge getting so little.
In fact the last one on the list did so by offering free travel within Tallinn
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Old November 21st, 2017, 09:40 PM   #3356
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Some of the CEE countries get virtually nothing from fares, they might as well make the system free of charge getting so little.
In those countries is railroad something like "transport for the poor". Ticket prices are heavily subsidized even in long distance traffic. And lot of people may use the trains free, for example in Hungary every EU citizens above 65 years can travel for free.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 11:35 AM   #3357
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No I am just comparing what is comparable. Of course You can be lucky enough to live near Paddington station and go to Maidenhead near railway station but most probably this won't be the case and at least 2 x 2,4 pounds for tube needs to be added to Your off peak return calculation (assuming that You have Oyster which is/was additional 5 sterling) while in Germany You don't need to pay such ransom as rail ticket which You have mentioned is valid also on busses and trams – it is so simple that almost boring. Ticketing in Britain is a pure madness and lucky those who live in TfL integrated area, so I don’t need to make British railways look bad as they simply suck in this field. My favourite ticket is "not via Clapham Junction" – boy you can have a lot of 'fun' with those
All this has more to do with rather poor integration of British public transport outside the TfL area. Here Germany has clear advantage.

The train tickets itself, apart form some very expensive peak fares, aren't really that much different In the UK than in the rest of western Europe. Often they are actually cheaper due to aggressive pricing.

Someone already posted this:
https://www.seat61.com/uk-europe-tra...omparison.html

I wish German style fare integration was introduced in more cities in the UK. But there is problem with private bus operators.

Anyway, I promise not to drag this OT
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 06:44 PM   #3358
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"German style fare integration", you mean the "City mobil-ticket" which you can buy while booking a ticket?



How is this different from purchasing a "London travelcard" or "PLUSBUS" ticket while buying a ticket for National Rail services?
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 07:20 PM   #3359
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Construction of new Berlin S-Bahn fleet started.


Source of picture (click) including further description.
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Old November 22nd, 2017, 07:52 PM   #3360
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Looks like these new S-bahn trains won't have much legroom!
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