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Old March 1st, 2010, 05:56 PM   #321
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In the race for the fastest trains it is indeed running behind. In the race for providing a system that is highly usable it is way ahead of the SNCF. It's not the train speed that is important, it's the travelling speed that counts. What matter is how quickly and how often one can get from one place to another. Just pick two random small towns 400km apart in Germany and in France and compare travel times by train. DB comes out ahead in most such comparisons.
You are correct, and in this case the DB approach is superior. However, most people are traveling between the big cities, or at least from small town to big city. The notion that everybody in germany is taking the train from one small town in bavaria to another in NRW is being over emphasized here. I travel a lot to Duesseldorf for work which I like because it is easy from me to daytrip via ICE to NL to see clients there for the day. It is also super easy to get back to the airport in Frankfurt. The vast majority of people Ive met on the train are traveling between big cities (of course this is a reflection of the fact that I am travelling during the week in non vacation periods). Very few people are traveling more than 300 km. My mother lives in Berlin and sometimes I like to see her as well when i have the time. Taking the train from Dus to Berlin is a PITA as it does stop in every mid sized town such as bochum or wolfsburg. Ironically enough, I see few people entering or exiting the train at these stops. Germany though cannot be presented with a network that is as focused on one place (such as paris) as it has a more evenly distributed population. A logical answer for the Germans would lie in more "sprinter" services that skip secondary towns like the Berlin Frankfurt route. All in all it is easier to readjust schedules than to lay new tracks and in this regard the french are ahead. Regardless of network, you'll see very few people traveling super long distances (berlin-vienna-budapest) beyond a couple of backpackers and rail fans. The idea of spending a night in a strange bed on the train is probably appealing to only a few and will never grab large market share. I'd rather spend 4 plus hours on the ICE to berlin from duesseldorf versus the aggrivating 45 minute plane ride, but the idea of spending 8 or 10 hours on a train (regardless of how fast it is) is a luxury of time that most people cannot afford.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 01:20 AM   #322
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but the idea of spending 8 or 10 hours on a train (regardless of how fast it is) is a luxury of time that most people cannot afford.
True. On such distances only sleeper trains make sense. You catch one in the evening, go to bed and in the morning you're at your destination. That's way more time-efficient than super-lond HSLs or even flying in most cases.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 02:28 AM   #323
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True. On such distances only sleeper trains make sense. You catch one in the evening, go to bed and in the morning you're at your destination. That's way more time-efficient than super-lond HSLs or even flying in most cases.
That depends if you want to spend a night on a train. Personally, I'd rather not. I'm usually solo in Europe so if I didnt have this personal preferance I guess it could be a viable option. However, if my wife was with me (or I actually lived in Europe), she would never let me leave a day early. My guess is that you dont have any children either...
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 10:25 AM   #324
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Then again, what if you don't want to hurry to/around/away from cramped airports. Not too comfortable either. I also kow families which enjoy taking overnight trains because it's much more relaxing (for both parents and children) than sitting in a car for a whole day. Unfortunately, they often are way too expensive.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 10:29 AM   #325
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Taking the train from Dus to Berlin is a PITA as it does stop in every mid sized town such as bochum or wolfsburg. Ironically enough, I see few people entering or exiting the train at these stops. Germany though cannot be presented with a network that is as focused on one place (such as paris) as it has a more evenly distributed population. A logical answer for the Germans would lie in more "sprinter" services that skip secondary towns like the Berlin Frankfurt route.
You need both the capacity, and the market for having direct and skip-stop services. However, it can be done, as the Japanes demonstrate.

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I'd rather spend 4 plus hours on the ICE to berlin from duesseldorf versus the aggrivating 45 minute plane ride, but the idea of spending 8 or 10 hours on a train (regardless of how fast it is) is a luxury of time that most people cannot afford.
I find the whole idea that people don't have the luxury of time to spend 10 hours on a train a bit odd when I see the masses on the motorways to the south in summer. People drive for 10 hours, often even two days in a row to get to their summer holidays. I wonder why there aren't more "daytime" motorrail trains.

When you're getting from A to B it quite often means you have to offer up a day to it anyway. Ofcourse it matters a lot wether it's travel for business or for pleasure. When I visit relatives the evenings are important. During the day I don't do a lot, and spend a lot of it reading anyway. I can do that as well on a train. So for me, anything that allows me to get up at my normal time, and then get to my destination befor dinner is ok. I therefore don't mind an 8 hour train trip. I occupy myself doing things I would also be doing if I was still at home, or allready at my destination.

The thing that strikes me a lot is that many railways are to much dominated by engineers, that to much attention is given to technical solutions, and to just having the fastest trains around. Not enough attention is given to psychological aspects. It is however attention to the psychology of travel that has made the Swiss Railways so successful. People enjoy being on a train a lot more than standing on a platform. For that reason speeding up the trains, but introducing longer waits at stations and more complicated transfers reduces the value your investments in fast trains and new lines. SBB could probably run a couple of trains a day between Geneva and Zürich that are faster then the fastest they have now, but they know they would lose more passengers if they abandon their network concept.

When I use the SBB planner it apologises when the only solution it can offer me includes a long layover. When I use the RENFE planner I have to explicitely tell it that I'm happy with short transfers, and even then it will warn me against it. As if I'm not able to change trains in half an hour, even in a station that I'm unfamiliar with. It does show a difference in philosophy. I know what I prefer though...
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 10:52 AM   #326
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Soissons - Carnoules is almost an hour faster than Pinneberg - Garmisch despite the transfer in Paris.
Your example is interesting, but it actually reinforces many of my arguments...

Pinneberg - Garmisch is always more or less the same time, with departures at least every hour, and no transfers between stations, and no long layovers. The last departure in Pinneberg that still gets me in Garmisch on the same day is at 15:20.

On Soissons- Carnoules the fastest is indeed almost an hour faster, but there is only one such routing, and it leaves at 6 in the morning. SNCF only offers two other possible departures (actually three, but two have the same arrival time). The last one is at 10:01. They all involve pretty long layovers, which somehow illustrate what I've been writing here: A lot of the gains SNCF makes with it fast trains get lost again due to lack of coordination.

DB offers me easier transfers and more flexibility in choosing my departure time. And even the on board food is better... DB wins in my eyes.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 11:09 AM   #327
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Then again, what if you don't want to hurry to/around/away from cramped airports. Not too comfortable either. I also kow families which enjoy taking overnight trains because it's much more relaxing (for both parents and children) than sitting in a car for a whole day. Unfortunately, they often are way too expensive.
Actually trains are often very good value for families. Especially compared with flying. A family of four will have to buy four seats on a plane. On a train however children often travel for (almost) free in many countries.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 03:46 PM   #328
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My mother lives in Berlin and sometimes I like to see her as well when i have the time. Taking the train from Dus to Berlin is a PITA as it does stop in every mid sized town such as bochum or wolfsburg.
to be fair it should be said that Bochum is part of the Rhine-Ruhr metropolitan area with ~10mio inhabitants. If you look at an arial image you won't even recognize the city borders because the neighboring cities start just where Bochum ends. i think a stop is justified here. Though it might be a bit excessive to stop 4 times in that area(Duisburg,Essen,Bochum and Dortmund)
OTOH trains can't go really go that fast there so i doubt it is such a big deal.

The stop in Wolfsburg only costs you 3 minutes compared to a ICE going nonstop from Hannover - Berlin. Again, not such a big deal.
Avoiding a stop in these mid-sized towns mostly only makes sense if there is a rail track around the city.(like in Stendal).
If the max speed on that line would be higher(>=300km/h) the additional stop with no doubt would cost you more time.
But since the max speed between Hannover - Wolfsburg is just 200km/h anyway ...

In the end the ICE connection Cologne - Berlin is just an ordinary IC connection with a bit more comfort. You can't really call it a HSL and compare it to Cologne-Frankfurt
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 04:31 PM   #329
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I prefer 8 hours in the train to 2 hours flying anytime.
Hell no. Especially if you are on those horrible train seats which face each other. Then there is even less leg room than a plane.

I'd so rather be on a plane for 2hours than a train for eight. No questions asked. And I guess most of the world agrees with me, since most people would fly for this distance.

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Don't forget that you also need to get to the aiport and back.
Don't forget you need to get to the train station and back. What makes you think the airport is always further than the central train station?

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With a good integrated system your trip starts at your local station, not in some far away airport. Their are far more railway stations than airports.
Uh? How is this different to flying. When I go to the train station, my first stop is my local Südbahnhof train station. The same station is my first stop to reach the airport.

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1 hour waiting/hanging around/trying not to strangle the employees at the security check.
Why do you have so much hassle? Maybe this is your airport? When I fly, I check in online before the flight and already have my boarding pass. I arrive at the airport, stroll through security and then sit and have a cappuccino whilst waiting to board. When I travel by train, I may not have to go through security, but I have the hassle of trying to find a space for my baggage, something that is totally taken care for my when I fly. Then I have an argument with the person who is sitting in my seat which I have reserved (almost always a case in Germany) and sometimes my baggage is so far away I can't keep an eye on it. You can't get some shuteye on a train when you laptop sits on a rack 20 rows behind you, otherwise it's unlikely to be there when you wake up.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 04:38 PM   #330
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True. On such distances only sleeper trains make sense. You catch one in the evening, go to bed and in the morning you're at your destination. That's way more time-efficient than super-lond HSLs or even flying in most cases.
I agree with this. As long as it's a private cabin. I've travelled on a few sleeper trains before and loved them. Except on the odd occasion I couldn't book a private cabin. Sharing a room with 7 other farting and snoring people squashed in a microscopic bunk was not fun.
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Old March 2nd, 2010, 04:47 PM   #331
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Sorry if this is a tad bit OT, but since some of you seem quite knowledgeable about this I'd appreciate any advice you may have to give...

I live in the US and I'm going to Berlin next month. We're going to take the ICE to Hamburg. Do you think it's necessary to reserve our tickets online before we leave? Or will it be ok to get the tickets at the train station in person? Is buying them at the train station a lot more expensive? What would you recommend? Thanks!
Seriously, book online. www.db.de
It's an excellent website and you can book in English. You can then print out your ticket and that's one bit of stress out of the way when you travel.

Make sure you reserve a seat as trains are often full and loads of people come on without seat reservations. You are likely to be left standing or kicked out of a seat when the person who reserved turns up.

Even if you reserve a seat, your seat will likely be taken by a freeloader. So you'll have to politely ask them to leave. Almost always, they will look surprised and challenge you to prove it's your reserved seat ;O) But you will be in the right and if they become stubborn someone sitting nearby will come to your aid and help you evict them ;O) Just be persistent, since you paid the reservation fee.

You can do this at the trainstation as well, and that maybe an option if you don't know the exact date you want to travel. But I would still recommend popping into a station (any Deutsche Bahn station) before your travel date to get the ticket as it ensures you can book a seat.

It will be a quick and generally comfortable trip between Berlin and Hamburg, about 1.5hours on an ICE train. But if you book in advance, you can get the €29 fare which is much cheaper than the standard €70 fare.
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Old March 3rd, 2010, 02:03 PM   #332
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Don't forget you need to get to the train station and back. What makes you think the airport is always further than the central train station?
The simple facts that a) there are quite a lot more train stations than airports, and b) that to get to the airport I must get to my local train station first anyway.

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Uh? How is this different to flying. When I go to the train station, my first stop is my local Südbahnhof train station. The same station is my first stop to reach the airport.
A big difference is when something goes wrong. When you travel A to B with a particular company it becomes responsible for getting you to B the moment you present yourself at A.
When travelling by train "A" will probably be a lot closer to where you are, so a lot less can go wrong while you go there. (In my case I walk to the station). So the moment you can stop worrying comes a lot sooner. If you fly you always have to worry about not making it to the airport on time, and need to plan accordingly. Many airports now advise you to be there two hours beforehand.

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Why do you have so much hassle? Maybe this is your airport? When I fly, I check in online before the flight and already have my boarding pass. I arrive at the airport, stroll through security and then sit and have a cappuccino whilst waiting to board.
"stroll through security". On what planet do you live? Son one won't be even allowed to keep his or her clothes on while going through security.
And while you are sipping a cappucino while waiting to board, I'll be sipping an espresso while allready travelling in the direction of my destination. :-)
Time moves faster in a moving trains than sitting in a waiting lounge at an airport. Not to mention the wait at the luggage caroussel at the destination. That seems to take as long as an hour long trainride... :-)
The difference in time is also a lot less than you make it out to be. From my house in Switzerland to that of my brother in Belgium is 8 hours by train, and 6 hours by plane. Of these 6 hours of course only about 1 1/2 hour are spend in a moving plane that is true.

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When I travel by train, I may not have to go through security, but I have the hassle of trying to find a space for my baggage, something that is totally taken care for my when I fly. Then I have an argument with the person who is sitting in my seat which I have reserved (almost always a case in Germany) and sometimes my baggage is so far away I can't keep an eye on it. You can't get some shuteye on a train when you laptop sits on a rack 20 rows behind you, otherwise it's unlikely to be there when you wake up.
I think it all comes under being preparedl. When I travel by train my laptop will not be in a rack 20 seats behind me. It will be in front of me. And I will be answering my emails, surfing the internet or just watching a movie. Things I'd be doing at home too if I wasn't travelling...
I usually don't worry about my other luggage. It normally travels in the overhead bins (I bought the largest bag that still fits in 90% of all luggage racks in Europe), and in southern Europe I will fix it with a cable. In Germany I don't worry about theft as it is uncomon. In Switzerland I don't even worry about loss :-)
All my valuables are in a backpack which is always with me. Oh, and I never have arguments with people occupying my seat. I just tell them politely that I have reserved this seat and give them a reasonable time to get their stuff and find another place. I have never had a problem with that.
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Old March 3rd, 2010, 10:04 PM   #333
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A big difference is when something goes wrong. When you travel A to B with a particular company it becomes responsible for getting you to B the moment you present yourself at A.
When travelling by train "A" will probably be a lot closer to where you are, so a lot less can go wrong while you go there. (In my case I walk to the station). So the moment you can stop worrying comes a lot sooner. If you fly you always have to worry about not making it to the airport on time, and need to plan accordingly. Many airports now advise you to be there two hours beforehand.
Do you really worry? If you miss your flight just take the next one. Arriving two hours ahead of time is a bit over the top dont you think? I never show up more than 45 minutes before departure, for intl flights I show up an hour ahead of time. Never had a problem, although once I arrived at McCarren with only 20 minutes to spare, and I had to do a little ass kissing to get my boarding pass.

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"stroll through security". On what planet do you live? Son one won't be even allowed to keep his or her clothes on while going through security.
And while you are sipping a cappucino while waiting to board, I'll be sipping an espresso while allready travelling in the direction of my destination. :-)
Time moves faster in a moving trains than sitting in a waiting lounge at an airport. Not to mention the wait at the luggage caroussel at the destination. That seems to take as long as an hour long trainride... :-)
I fly through one of the NYC airports at least 3 times a month. I have never spent more than 15 minutes in security. I always have to take my coat and shoes off, but never anything else. After 9/11 it was a real hassle, but has gotten a lot better over the years. European airports are even easier. Like you said, its a matter of being prepared so I always wear shoes that can be slipped on or off. Since I fly instead of wasting my time on a night train, I travel with little more than some files and a laptop. Sometimes I'll take an overnight bag, but I never check any luggage....thats for tourists...


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The difference in time is also a lot less than you make it out to be. From my house in Switzerland to that of my brother in Belgium is 8 hours by train, and 6 hours by plane. Of these 6 hours of course only about 1 1/2 hour are spend in a moving plane that is true.
I too would rather spend 8 hours on a train versus 6 dealing with flying but I must ask, why does it take you six hours? Do you live far away from the airport?
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Old March 4th, 2010, 01:51 AM   #334
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Not really. Most cities have one central station and one airport.
Most cities don't even have airports. But maybe your definition if what counts as a city is different.

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If you are talking about small public transport stations, then that is pointless as they can be used for both rail and air travel to get to or from the central station or airport.
Sure you can combine train with plane, but than you lose the advantage of sticking to one mode. If your train is late to the airport and you miss your flight, well good luck. If your train is late to the next transfer station and you miss a connection you just hop on the next train available.
And by train you might not need to go to the same places as when travelling by plane. If I fly (which I won't do anymore if I can avoid it) I first have to travel to Zürich or Geneva. If however I want to travel to Germany or France by train I don't have to go via these places. By the time I'm at the Zürich airport I can already be in Germany...

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I don't agree with you in he slightest here. There is no difference to getting to the central station or the airport. The fact is, in both cases you have to be there in time. Maybe you live within walking distance to the central station but most people in your city don't. Where I live it takes exactly the same amount of time to get to central or the airport.
The airport requires you to be there in advance so there is time for procedures. Usually they now advice you to be there 2 hours in advance. Experienced travellers can do it faster, but hope than that your transportation to the airport is on time.
For a train all I need to do is be on the platform at the latest the minute the train leaves, although I'll usually plan 5 minutes. That is a big difference. It becomes even more important if you have to change. You can change trains in 10 minutes. Try that wiht planes at a big aiport. From the airport where I live the only flights are to München, so I would have to change there for other destinations.

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Yes, they do suggest this. But a) What's wrong with that? The flight is a lot shorter than the rain journey anyway, and once you are through customs and security, you just relax in a cafe with a coffee or breakfast. Hardly uncomfortable.

And b) If you are flying within Europe, you don't need to be there 2 hours before hand. I always check-in online these days, have my boarding card ready and can arrive at the airport 30-40 minutes before the flight without any issue.
Just wait till strip searsches become the norm before they let you on the plane...
Anyway, you can indeed arrive at some airports 30 minutes beforehand. Don't try this at heathrow though. And hope your taxi to the aiport doesn't get stuck in traffic.

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The only thing I may need to take off is a belt and jacket which is pretty easy to put back on. Otherwise yes, a simple stroll. Jesus, it's not as hard as you make out. Besides, some international train journey's now have security as well in place just like in the airports and sadly this will become more common.
The only international train journey that has this at the moment is Eurostar. And I hope I'll be able to control myself the next time I have to take one.
The biggest problem I have with these control is that they are so pointless. You have to subject yourself completely to the whims of a group of sub primates all to no purpose whatsoever. That makes me angry.

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Big deal. I'll still get there before you do ;O)
Not necessarily. The last time I travelled from the City of London to Bern (via Heathrow and Zürich) I would have been faster by train all the way...

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Usually I am out of the plane and at the bus/train/taxi within 18minutes. I'd rather have all that than struggle to find a place for my bag like in a train. Especially if I have to change trains.
I'm usually pretty fast too. It all comes down to experience. But then I manage to change from a train arriving in Paris Gare de Lyon to one in Paris Gare du Nord in 18 minutes too...

Getting from the train to the taxirank in any European station? 5 minutes max.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 01:57 AM   #335
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Do you really worry? If you miss your flight just take the next one.
You take the next one after forking over a few hundreds of Euros... Yes, you can do that.


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Arriving two hours ahead of time is a bit over the top dont you think? I never show up more than 45 minutes before departure, for intl flights I show up an hour ahead of time. Never had a problem, although once I arrived at McCarren with only 20 minutes to spare, and I had to do a little ass kissing to get my boarding pass.
European low budget carriers are ruthless. If they can find a reason not to let you on the plane they will. So if you're only one minute to late at the check in desk you can forget it, and you'll pay through the nose to get on the next flight.

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I too would rather spend 8 hours on a train versus 6 dealing with flying but I must ask, why does it take you six hours? Do you live far away from the airport?
Most people live far away from the airport....
In my case I live in the capital of Switzerland. Our "international airport" has a few flights to Munich that's all... So to go elsewhere I either have to change in Munich, which adds time and makes train even more attractive, or go to Geneva or Zürich first. Both are more than an hour away. But then, once I'm at the other end I'm not yet at my destination. It's a bit due to geography. If I travel by plane I first have to move away from my final destination, and then overshoot it...
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Old March 4th, 2010, 03:34 AM   #336
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Security does not take longer than 10 to 15 minutes (worst case). And without check in luggage and with electronic ticket you can arrive at the aiport 30 minutes before departure without problem.

And in many cases there is absolutly no difference whether you go to central station or to the aiport. Both are fairly well connected with public transport. And for people who use the car, the airport is often easier to reach. When in Frankfurt, I always call taxi and it takes me 15-20 minutes to the aiport and around 10 minutes to central station. No big difference. And for people in the suburbs it might be even easier to go to the aiport. Never understand why people think that airports are so time consuming.

And I am completly willing to pay an extra 100EUR if it saves me a couple hours travel time. No need to rely on cheap budget airlines such as ryanair and co.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 06:58 AM   #337
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The simple facts that a) there are quite a lot more train stations than airports, and b) that to get to the airport I must get to my local train station first anyway.
Not really. Most cities have one central station and one airport. If you are talking about small public transport stations, then that is pointless as they can be used for both rail and air travel to get to or from the central station or airport.


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A big difference is when something goes wrong. When you travel A to B with a particular company it becomes responsible for getting you to B the moment you present yourself at A.
When travelling by train "A" will probably be a lot closer to where you are, so a lot less can go wrong while you go there. (In my case I walk to the station). So the moment you can stop worrying comes a lot sooner. If you fly you always have to worry about not making it to the airport on time, and need to plan accordingly.
I don't agree with you in he slightest here. There is no difference to getting to the central station or the airport. The fact is, in both cases you have to be there in time. Maybe you live within walking distance to the central station but most people in your city don't. Where I live it takes exactly the same amount of time to get to central or the airport.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Many airports now advise you to be there two hours beforehand.
Yes, they do suggest this. But a) What's wrong with that? The flight is a lot shorter than the rain journey anyway, and once you are through customs and security, you just relax in a cafe with a coffee or breakfast. Hardly uncomfortable.

And b) If you are flying within Europe, you don't need to be there 2 hours before hand. I always check-in online these days, have my boarding card ready and can arrive at the airport 30-40 minutes before the flight without any issue.

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"stroll through security". On what planet do you live? Son one won't be even allowed to keep his or her clothes on while going through security.
The only thing I may need to take off is a belt and jacket which is pretty easy to put back on. Otherwise yes, a simple stroll. Jesus, it's not as hard as you make out. Besides, some international train journey's now have security as well in place just like in the airports and sadly this will become more common.

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And while you are sipping a cappucino while waiting to board, I'll be sipping an espresso while allready travelling in the direction of my destination. :-)
Big deal. I'll still get there before you do ;O)

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Time moves faster in a moving trains than sitting in a waiting lounge at an airport.
No way. For me the opposite. Sitting in one spot, time goes slower. However, the change of scenery by moving from place to place like in an airport time goes quicker.

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Not to mention the wait at the luggage caroussel at the destination. That seems to take as long as an hour long trainride... :-)
Usually I am out of the plane and at the bus/train/taxi within 18minutes. I'd rather have all that than struggle to find a place for my bag like in a train. Especially if I have to change trains.

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. In Germany I don't worry about theft as it is uncomon. In Switzerland I don't even worry about loss :-)
Not true.
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Old March 4th, 2010, 08:29 AM   #338
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Security does not take longer than 10 to 15 minutes (worst case). And without check in luggage and with electronic ticket you can arrive at the aiport 30 minutes before departure without problem.
I've seen longer lines at security. But my problem is not the queuing. It's the fact that I have to surrender my dignity to a group of would be concentratrion camp guards all for no purpose at all. Last time I flew I had to take of my shoes, my belt, had to pass through the detector twice and was then manually frisked to boot.
All because our politicians want to show they can make us do whatever they want. That makes me angry. It's a pointles waste of tax payer money, and it's harrasment to boot.
And I know you can check in electronically, and if you don't have lots of luggage you could indeed try to risk it and get to the aiport only half an hour beforehand. But I hope you don't run in to any traffic jams or a distruption in public transport, because then you're in trouble.

[QUOTE]
Quote:
And in many cases there is absolutly no difference whether you go to central station or to the aiport. Both are fairly well connected with public transport.
The public transport to the central station is often part of the system that will take charge of you beyond that. So your trip really allready starts in your suburb.
In my case for example, when I fly I do have to take the train to Zürich, which takes 1 1/4 hours. But when I travel by train all the way my trip allready starts in my town, and I can be out of the country, 100km closer to my destination after 1 1/4 hour...

Quote:
And for people who use the car, the airport is often easier to reach. When in Frankfurt, I always call taxi and it takes me 15-20 minutes to the aiport and around 10 minutes to central station. No big difference. And for people in the suburbs it might be even easier to go to the aiport. Never understand why people think that airports are so time consuming.
People think that airports are time consuming because they are. You spend a lot of the time at an airport just waiting. Waiting is not fun. Time moves faster when you're moving.

Quote:
And I am completly willing to pay an extra 100EUR if it saves me a couple hours travel time. No need to rely on cheap budget airlines such as ryanair and co.
The last time I needed to go to Belgium it would have cost me 800 euros to save two hours. That's to much for me.
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Old March 5th, 2010, 01:20 PM   #339
Baron Hirsch
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While the question of what potential train passengers demand from a rail system is worht debating, we have been carried away by details and not everyone's personal preferences and itineraries are actually that interesting. Can we stop these childish discussions about where it is more fun to drink your cappucino - at the airport or on the train?
According to a newspaper report DB's investments into rail infrastructure are underfinanced. Instead of the necessary annual 1.8 billion Euros, after 2011 only 1.1 billion will be available. Stuttgart 21, Stuttgart -Ulm, Ulm-Augsburg and Lepizig-Erfurt-Nürnberg HSL are not mentioned as effected, but just about all other important HSL investments are. These investments into rail infrastructure are among the lowest per capita in Europe, and a fraction of the government support for buying new cars last year (Abwrackprämie). The original article is posted below (in German).
Quoting DMM:
Bahn fehlt Geld für Baumaßnahmen
Nach Informationen der Süddeutschen Zeitung kann die Deutsche Bahn 46 vordringliche Aus- und Neubauprojekte vorerst nicht realisieren.

Wie die Zeitung unter Berufung auf eine vorliegende Übersicht berichtet, muss die Bahn den Ausbau des Schienennetzes drastisch drosseln. Viele der Projekte hätten bis 2015 fertig sein sollen, doch wie sich nun zeigt, ist ihre Finanzierung nicht einmal bis 2025 gesichert. Nach Ansicht der Opposition droht "ein Verkehrsinfarkt".

Laut dem Papier seien vor allem Ausbauten betroffen , aber auch mehrere Neubaustrecken, darunter die als besonders wichtig geltenden Trassen von Karlsruhe nach Basel, von Frankfurt nach Mannheim sowie von Fulda nach Frankfurt, heißt es in dem Zeitungsbericht.

Auch beim Aus- und Neubau der Strecke von Hanau über Würzburg/Fulda nach Erfurt sowie bei der Trasse von Hannover Richtung Bremen und Hamburg (sogenannte Y-Trasse) sei die Finanzierung offen. Diese Strecken wären zum Teil jetzt schon stark überlastet. Wenn in Zukunft der Güterverkehr wieder anzieht, würden weitere Engpässe drohen.

Wie es im Beitrag weiter heißt, hätte Bahn-Chef Rüdiger Grube das Papier vor einigen Tagen im Verkehrsausschuss des Bundestags präsentiert. Daraus gehe hervor, dass die Bahn bis 2025 jährlich 1,8 Milliarden Euro für Investitionen in die Infrastruktur benötigen würde, um die wichtigsten Projekte zu realisieren. Nach den derzeitigen Haushaltsplanungen stünden ihr jedoch ab 2011 - nach Auslaufen der Konjunkturprogramme - jährlich nur 1,16 Milliarden Euro zur Verfügung.
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Old March 6th, 2010, 12:29 AM   #340
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yeah, and while they scream for more money, DB netz moves 750mio € profits to other parts of the DB.. ****** monopolist.
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