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Old December 19th, 2017, 04:08 PM   #3401
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Wondering if there ever will be a Milan - Berlin and/or a Venice - Berlin and/or a Rome - Berlin night train. Maybe over the HSL line once appropriate rolling stock is available.

The current Milan/Venice to Munich trains are nice but too limited in scope and range, while Berlin is one of the most popular destination for young Italian expatriates, which is a market segment that may consider traveling overnight to increase the available time to spend back home at their families'.
Overnight travel is very expensive in decent trains with individual cabins. There are many daily flights between TXL/SFX to LIN/MXP and FCO/CIA.

There is a daily high speed service Frankfurt Hbf - Milano C.le already...
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Old December 19th, 2017, 06:05 PM   #3402
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I think there are also frequent Venice-Munich flights but this does not seem to prevent DB from offering trains over the Brenner railway.

Daily trains can also count on patronage between all the stations where they stop, while for night trains it's always argued that this positive effect is lower, however in this particular case night trains could at least count on patronage from Florence, Bologna, Brescia, Verona, Vicenza, Padova, Trento and Bolzano in Italy (depending on the route), and probably Leipzig in Germany, all while still easily provide for 6 uninterrupted hours of full sleep.

Why do you say individual cabins? I was really considering decent trains with bunks or berths really. That is, a bare bones, cheap travel service for young people (university students participating in the Erasmus program, young professionals or young people in their first jobs that happen to be across the continent), without breakfast served (who cares, if your trains arrive at 8:00 in a station with restaurants) or other frills.

Anyway, I think arguments solely based on ticket prices are somewhat short-sighted because we will see higher prices for low cost airlines some years from now in any case: low cost airlines can offer today's prices for tickets because they enjoy huge tax breaks from the EU, but there has already been calls to start paying for CO2 emissions, and to start phasing out some VAT breaks too. This may help revive night trains in Europe in the next years.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 06:11 PM   #3403
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HS trains are expensive to buy and mantain. A single trainset is used on several trips per day and possibly into late hours (DB has some night ICE services).
A night HS train could be used on just a single trip per day, would cost more per passenger (much more space needed) and could not be used for any service during daytime.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 06:13 PM   #3404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touya View Post
I think there are also frequent Venice-Munich flights but this does not seem to prevent DB from offering trains over the Brenner railway.

Daily trains can also count on patronage between all the stations where they stop, while for night trains it's always argued that this positive effect is lower, however in this particular case night trains could at least count on patronage from Florence, Bologna, Brescia, Verona, Vicenza, Padova, Trento and Bolzano in Italy (depending on the route), and probably Leipzig in Germany, all while still easily provide for 6 uninterrupted hours of full sleep.

Why do you say individual cabins? I was really considering decent trains with bunks or berths really. That is, a bare bones, cheap travel service for young people (university students participating in the Erasmus program, young professionals or young people in their first jobs that happen to be across the continent), without breakfast served (who cares, if your trains arrive at 8:00 in a station with restaurants) or other frills.

Anyway, I think arguments solely based on ticket prices are somewhat short-sighted because we will see higher prices for low cost airlines some years from now in any case: low cost airlines can offer today's prices for tickets because they enjoy huge tax breaks from the EU, but there has already been calls to start paying for CO2 emissions, and to start phasing out some VAT breaks too. This may help revive night trains in Europe in the next years.
For that, Ryanair and Easyjet are the answer, and they take just 1h40 between both capitals...
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Old December 19th, 2017, 07:03 PM   #3405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by touya View Post

Anyway, I think arguments solely based on ticket prices are somewhat short-sighted because we will see higher prices for low cost airlines some years from now in any case: low cost airlines can offer today's prices for tickets because they enjoy huge tax breaks from the EU, but there has already been calls to start paying for CO2 emissions, and to start phasing out some VAT breaks too. This may help revive night trains in Europe in the next years.
Does Germany have any sort of air ticket taxation? Here in the UK there is a specific tax 'Air Passenger Duty' levied to help compensate for some of those issues you mention.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Passenger_Duty

There is also zero VAT on train fares here so no advantage there for airlines.

Last edited by Jonesy55; December 19th, 2017 at 07:11 PM.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 07:58 PM   #3406
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This is perhaps going a bit too OT, is there a suitable thread to discuss night trains in Europe?

@Jonesy55: I'm referring to what I read on this website: http://www.tamingaviation.eu/index.php?id=29&L=1 which admittedly may be a bit biased against air travel In particular:

Quote:
As a result there is no VAT on any aspect of international air travel, not on airline tickets, nor on purchase of aircraft, nor on their servicing, nor on their fuel, nor on air traffic control, nor on baggage handling, nor on aircraft meals. Everything to do with air travel after passport control is zero rated.
(international means also flights *within* the EU)

Also, http://www.tamingaviation.eu/index.php?id=34&L=1 for Energy Tax exemptions.

EasyJet tells me that for Germany the per-passenger, per-flight tax is €7.47, which would be the 20% VAT of a ticket of €44.82.

Last edited by touya; December 19th, 2017 at 08:04 PM.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 08:31 PM   #3407
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The Erasmus generation of today (most oftem born in the 1990s) are flocking to cheap air travel. The first trip to London, Paris, Barcelona with their friends -> its done by plane - period. They dont know anything else.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 12:26 AM   #3408
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Can't blame us when it costs literally 20€ by Ryanair/Wizzair.

Usually the cost from the airport to the city rivals the price, while trains are 10x as expensive.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 01:19 AM   #3409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doc7austin View Post
The Erasmus generation of today (most oftem born in the 1990s) are flocking to cheap air travel. The first trip to London, Paris, Barcelona with their friends -> its done by plane - period. They dont know anything else.
Sad but so very true.
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Old January 5th, 2018, 02:22 PM   #3410
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Hamburg Altona terminus is set to be closed and replaced with new through facility in Hamburg-Diebsteich location which will be renamed as Hamburg Altona. New station will feature 3 main line platforms with 6 tracks while S-Bahn will retain its island platform with two tracks. Its opening is set at 2023, further details and source of visualisation (click).
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Old January 7th, 2018, 03:48 AM   #3411
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The plan is good - today's Altona is horrendous and inefficient.

I just wonder what will happen to the S-Bahn network, since Altona is a node where both urban corridors meet while Diebsteich is on an outer branch.

The western parts of S1 and S11 have no way to connect to the new hub (they are to Hbf, though).

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Old January 7th, 2018, 11:12 AM   #3412
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Where can I view a copy of that map please? It looks very detailed and I'm keen to zoom in to some places.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 12:56 PM   #3413
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It's used on the German Wikipedia for the Hamburg S-Bahn page.

Here you can find all sizes:
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/F...hn_Hamburg.png
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

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Old January 7th, 2018, 04:34 PM   #3414
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Thanks. I thought I might be able to drill down into fine detail. It's a nice map all the same though.
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Old January 7th, 2018, 07:39 PM   #3415
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Yeah, I know the Hamburg node can be rather complicated to understand. Especially in Altona there's a through S service, one bouncing to another line and two terminating there but from two different lines

Plus, the S surface line from Hbf and the ICE line from their depot both come into Altona with their tracks swapped around (running on the left), to add to the general mess.

No surprise they're getting rid of it
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I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.

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Old January 14th, 2018, 08:06 PM   #3416
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And what about new NIM express? Is the new Skoda`s DOSTO in use?
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