daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 15th, 2010, 02:24 PM   #381
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Let us return to the subject here: Stuttgart 21 is not being built to serve an area as small Switzerland (in that case we should discuss only how it will effect Württemberg, not even Baden); the idea is that it will be a link in the first Transeuropean East to West highspeed corridor.
In this case, we will have to discuss not if this should be operated like DB would like it or like ÖBB, MAV or SNCF (or K.), but how to combine these different approaches. For ex., German passengers are not used to reservation only systems on HS trains, DB has so far always managed to negotiate exceptions for their unruly customers in contrast to the more tamed passengers of SNCF who by enlarge accept the mandatory reservation system. So merging national HSL systems has many open questions.
I agree largely with you, but such a discussion will inveriable entail discussions about which practices are more successfull. And than we are back to DB versus SNCF versus SBB versus....
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 16th, 2010, 04:57 AM   #382
derUlukai
✪ ALPHA-KEVIN ✪
 
derUlukai's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,447
Likes (Received): 5335

Quote:
Originally Posted by kato2k8 View Post
DB has reservation-only trains. The three "ICE Sprinter" lines (reservation-only since 2002, first class since 1998).

Also, this has nothing to do with Stuttgart 21.
and i still dont get the sense of this reservation-only-policy..
derUlukai no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 25th, 2010, 04:12 PM   #383
Barhocker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2
Likes (Received): 0

Now, to return to S21 finally. I guess there were some posts telling some not quite correct issues about both parts of the whole project. Please keep in mind that there are two different projects to look at which originally had no connection. The so called NBS (HSL between Wendlingen and Ulm) and later the complete modification of Stuttgart station. The HSL originally was designed to connect with the terminus.

Someone somewhere in this discussion claimed that the new connction between Wendlingen and Ulm is also built for freight-trains to avoid the now-existing steep track (2,25 %). This is an often quoted lie. The new track is even steeper (up to 3,5 %) and therefore unsuitable for freighttrains in any case. The DB "invented" some "light" freightliners (up to 1000 t) to make it economically reasonable. Such trains do not exist as far as I know.

To the station itself. Someone somewhere claimed that there were 2 tracks for each direction. This isn't quite right. Of course there are 4 tracks on each side of the new station. But if you have a look at the plan provided on the first page of this discussion you will see that on one side two of those 4 tracks only serve the so called ring. So to get to Munich or to Zurich, the same two tracks are used up to the airport-station. What is more, the regional trains to Tübingen will occupy the new track up to Wendlingen. There probably won't be any high-speed possible in this section (contrary to the little animation you all appreciated).
The new station dosen't bring advantages for all people. Those travelling south (direction Swizzerland) will have a 5 minutes delay because of a detour plus the extra stop at the airport.
This just mentioned as an example not to take "some advertisement" (by the DB) too serious and a reminder to always have look at both sides of the medal.
Although the "kick-off" has taken place there are still missing some cruical permissions concerning the planned concept. I don't feel satisfied with that, because I fear someone wants to create a "fait accompli" to put the screws on.

Last edited by Barhocker; March 25th, 2010 at 11:16 PM. Reason: typos
Barhocker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 27th, 2010, 01:25 AM   #384
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 44,308
Likes (Received): 59746

I just hate this project. Such a huge waste of money for free building space... That is to be filled with buttugly modernist boxes.


If you understand some German, you may check out this video:

Der Superbahnhof von Stuttgart - Frontal 21 Reportage
("The super station of Stuttgart")
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 27th, 2010, 12:24 PM   #385
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
I just hate this project. Such a huge waste of money for free building space... That is to be filled with buttugly modernist boxes.


If you understand some German, you may check out this video:

Der Superbahnhof von Stuttgart - Frontal 21 Reportage
("The super station of Stuttgart")

This is what I cannot stand in modern Germany.

You have a ~3700 bn eur economy and yet you have moronic nimbys who protest spending less than 10 bn over a DECADE for something that will be there for several decades if not hundreds of years (the tunnels, the soil under thet track, the stations etc.).

This is pathetic. If this was france or spain or italy or japan or china, you could already make the Stuttgart-Munchen journey in 1 hr and the Frankfurt-Munchen journey in 2 hrs.
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 27th, 2010, 01:21 PM   #386
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 44,308
Likes (Received): 59746

No, it's pathetic how they waste 8 billion Euros of tax money(!!) for this charade, while they moan about the costs of the 80 million(! that's peanuts) facade of Berlin Castle reconstruction. Or about the financial deficit for education, that makes up not even 3% of German spending, while it's about 40% for social welfare crap.

Who are you to judge about the actual situation, anyway?
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 27th, 2010, 06:01 PM   #387
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barhocker View Post
To the station itself. Someone somewhere claimed that there were 2 tracks for each direction. This isn't quite right. Of course there are 4 tracks on each side of the new station. But if you have a look at the plan provided on the first page of this discussion you will see that on one side two of those 4 tracks only serve the so called ring. So to get to Munich or to Zurich, the same two tracks are used up to the airport-station. What is more, the regional trains to Tübingen will occupy the new track up to Wendlingen. There probably won't be any high-speed possible in this section (contrary to the little animation you all appreciated).
The new station dosen't bring advantages for all people. Those travelling south (direction Swizzerland) will have a 5 minutes delay because of a detour plus the extra stop at the airport.
The new track layout will have a higher capacity than the current one. That the trains to Switzerland share tracks with those to München and with southbound regional trains is not really a big issue. This is just a question of timetabling. Normally you let the regional trains leave shortly after the long distance ones. How much the stop at the airport adds is to be seen. Maybe thanks to the better integration it becomes worthwile to run Zürich - Stuttgart every hour, which would be a big win.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 27th, 2010, 07:17 PM   #388
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
Who are you to judge about the actual situation, anyway?
that's classy dude, real classy
why the F are you on an _international_ forum, arguing, if you can't take critizism?
are you a republican by any chance?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
No, it's pathetic how they waste 8 billion Euros of tax money(!!) for this charade, while they moan about the costs of the 80 million(! that's peanuts) facade of Berlin Castle reconstruction. Or about the financial deficit for education, that makes up not even 3% of German spending, while it's about 40% for social welfare crap.
i don't know about the rest, nor do i care: this is a forum about infrastructure, not about the fine details of fiscal policy

the berlin castle facade might be cheap to rebuild, but it does not generate money
this project would


your kind of reaganite-thatcherite anti-tax, anti-keynesian, anti-stimulus attitued supported by millions of shortsighted and simpleminded nimbies costs much-much more to the german economy _and_ the precious taxpayers than this project


this project would take ~10 years to complete, so about 800 million eur per year INVESTMENT into something that will generate money over several decades and some portion for several centuries

can you deal with that?
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 27th, 2010, 11:45 PM   #389
particlez
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 532
Likes (Received): 106

^amen.

no one wants money to be wasted. but the focus on infrastructure, especially environmentally friendly, efficient transit should not be seen as frivolous spending.

either you put the money on trains and their stations, or people will spend it on gasoline and roads. and sadly, some of the nimbys are so short sighted, they'll complain about a train station, yet implicitly agree with much worse alternatives.
particlez está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2010, 11:01 AM   #390
city_thing
Put it in your mouth
 
city_thing's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Melbourne.
Posts: 7,128
Likes (Received): 883

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
that's classy dude, real classy
why the F are you on an _international_ forum, arguing, if you can't take critizism?
are you a republican by any chance?
If it's "an_international_forum" - why are you talking to everyone like they're Americans?

Germany has conservatives, not republicans. Everything doesn't have to be about generating money either.
__________________
Calling occupants of interplanetary craft...
city_thing no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2010, 12:32 PM   #391
goschio
proud Kuffar
 
goschio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ujerumani
Posts: 6,062
Likes (Received): 4268

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
No, it's pathetic how they waste 8 billion Euros of tax money(!!) for this charade, while they moan about the costs of the 80 million(! that's peanuts) facade of Berlin Castle reconstruction. Or about the financial deficit for education, that makes up not even 3% of German spending, while it's about 40% for social welfare crap.

Who are you to judge about the actual situation, anyway?
Better 8 billion for infrastructure than 500 million for a castle. That castle is the most bizarre thing ever. We don't live in middle ages and we don't need castles paid by tax money. Its certainly not the job of the government to built castles. Especially not during worst economic crisis ever.
__________________
Isaiah 28:2
Behold, the Lord hath a mighty and strong one, which as a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, as a flood of mighty waters overflowing, shall cast down to the earth with the hand.

Matthew 7:25
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
goschio no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2010, 03:41 PM   #392
Barhocker
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 2
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The new track layout will have a higher capacity than the current one. That the trains to Switzerland share tracks with those to München and with southbound regional trains is not really a big issue. This is just a question of timetabling. Normally you let the regional trains leave shortly after the long distance ones. How much the stop at the airport adds is to be seen. Maybe thanks to the better integration it becomes worthwile to run Zürich - Stuttgart every hour, which would be a big win.
Now, some people (like the former superintendent of the main station) doubt that the new layout will have a higher capacity. Compared with the actual (I tend to say deliberatly ruined) condition of the existing station you might be right. But this station only needs some modernisation to have a higher capacity.

Zürich - Stuttgart hourly? Please keep in mind that a good part of this connection still has only one track. I guess it would make much more sense to reconsturct that bottleneck to improve the attractiveness of this connection or any connection going south.
Remember, the gain of time (for the long-distance connections) with the new station (alone) will only be about 3 to 5 minutes compared with the actual situation. But for many regional connections it makes matters worse.
In my opinion the suburban and regional (within a range of about 50 km) traffic comes first and must be improved. Long-distance connections may be nice, but only concern lets say 1% (?) of the railway users.
Barhocker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 28th, 2010, 07:47 PM   #393
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barhocker View Post
Now, some people (like the former superintendent of the main station) doubt that the new layout will have a higher capacity. Compared with the actual (I tend to say deliberatly ruined) condition of the existing station you might be right. But this station only needs some modernisation to have a higher capacity.
All I know is that SBB (who do know a thing or two about running an efficient trains service) is building a 4 track through station under Zürich HbF that they expect will have enough capacity to decommission four stub tracks, and at the same time increase frequencies on several long distance lines.
Terminal stations are a bottleneck. At best you can turn four trains per hour on a terminal track. whereas you can easily handle ten trains per hour on a through track.

Quote:
Zürich - Stuttgart hourly? Please keep in mind that a good part of this connection still has only one track. I guess it would make much more sense to reconsturct that bottleneck to improve the attractiveness of this connection or any connection going south.
The beauty of an hourly service is that trains always cross at the same place. All you need to do is have a passing track there were your timetable requires it. Having an hourly long distance trains, and a halfhourly local is common on many single track lines in Switzerland.

Quote:
Remember, the gain of time (for the long-distance connections) with the new station (alone) will only be about 3 to 5 minutes compared with the actual situation. But for many regional connections it makes matters worse.
In my opinion the suburban and regional (within a range of about 50 km) traffic comes first and must be improved. Long-distance connections may be nice, but only concern lets say 1% (?) of the railway users.
Looking at the project I'd say that the regional trains are the big winners, especially when travelling across town. Changing from one train to another will probably require less time too.
Basically what you would need to do to assess this is to look at the timetable they intend to run once this is finished.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 29th, 2010, 11:10 AM   #394
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 44,308
Likes (Received): 59746

Quote:
Originally Posted by goschio View Post
Its certainly not the job of the government to built castles.
No, but to build museums. The Humboldt-Forum won't be anything different from another museum - they'd build one there anyway.

And the baroque facades are financed through donations, in case you didn't know.
The thing why they'd skip it is, that the castle with its modern addition just sucks and no one wants to donate for this chimera. Including me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by goschio View Post
Better 8 billion for infrastructure than 500 million for a castle.
Germany lacks cultural and architectural infrastructure, not traffic related. Stuttgart station works fine, the cost-benefit ratio of Stuttgart21 is ridiculous. In contrast to the Berlin Castle.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 29th, 2010, 08:29 PM   #395
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21257

Guys, the discussion is getting somehow ugly. Though I'm not German (just happen to live across the border in The Netherlands), the patter is all recognizable:

1. There is an expensive and controversial infrastructure project (not without its merits)

2. NIMBYs and environwackos histeria drive the costs to the roofs; government abides because it's better to buy them out with "compensatory" and "mitigations" initiatives than fight them politically or in the courts given the present legal framework of most Western Europe countries. Plainly stated: political extortion at gunpoint (or would it be at crane button?)

3. Other constituencies, unrelated to the project itself, feel spoiled by the oh-so-fancy state-of-the-art project, and start comparing smaller completely unrelated projects (a.k.a., that Berlin Castle in this case) to the infrastructure project.

4. Localist related groups step in, demanding money to be diverted to infrastructure projects in that will serve more people on a daily bases with demagogic argument (a.k.a., local mobility in Stuttgart metro should be a priority over "less than 1% long distance" traffic).

5. Discussion lost its sense, national politics, fiscal and economy policy etc. take the place.

6. The project keeps going, and most of its most fierce critics silently love it.

I could present 5 or 6 likewise projects suffering the same in SSC and in real life: Messina Strait bridge (a group of greenwackos just released a 'report' associating how many metro lines could be built in Italy with the € 5,1 bln. allocated to the bridge), Italy High-Speed axis, Fréjus Base Tunnel, HSL-Zuid, AVE Alicante, TVG Est, Berlin International Airport (the list goes on).
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 29th, 2010, 08:50 PM   #396
erbse
LIBERTINED
 
erbse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: McLenBurg
Posts: 44,308
Likes (Received): 59746

^ Interesting analysis. Do you support the project?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Fréjus Base Tunnel, HSL-Zuid, AVE Alicante, TVG Est, Berlin International Airport (the list goes on)
Those don't have anything in common with Stuttgart21. A project laying train lines underground and reforming a central station that works well already for billions of euros is "a tad" less expedient than let's say building an almost complete new airport that is highly demanded (like BBI Berlin).

Where's democratic culture going if we can't balance things out, compare S21 to projects that Germany really is in need for? People always cry for schools and education in this case - and I have to agree with those. It's ridiculous how we pump such amounts of money in a pretty useless infrastructure project while our school system is totally ****ed up - and therewith most of our future. As we (still) are a high tech industry nation, not some 3rd world low-wage country. This derisory station is the very last thing Germany needs, believe me.
__________________
GET FREE!
D W F


🔥 Tradition doesn't mean to look after the ash, but to keep the flame alive! 🔥
erbse no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 29th, 2010, 09:04 PM   #397
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21257

Quote:
Originally Posted by erbse View Post
^ Interesting analysis. Do you support the project?
I've not taken much more time to get myself informed about it, other than this thread and a documentary I've watched on TV (German, w/ English subtitles) talking about how Stuttgart will reinvent itself completely and become a more competitive place to attract talent and business with this project and the associated urban renovation that will follow it. So I can say the project is impressive, but I can't say that I'm for or against it.

I'd surely support a new high-speed line from Frankfurt to München, though. That would be a killer. That it takes 3h10 to travel 330km by train between two richest metro areas from the richest big country in Europe is a real pity... it would be good if Berlin, Hamburg, München, the Rhur metro and Frankfurt were all linked by high-speed rail (today, I guess only Köln and Frankfurt have true segregated high-speed rail, right?)
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 30th, 2010, 07:02 PM   #398
kato2k8
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 527
Likes (Received): 106

Note that the Wendlingen - Ulm line is subsidized by the state government (to the tune of about €1 billion, even if it's an entirely federal matter to take care of that from a legal perspective). The federal government hasn't exactly been eager to spend money in Germany's richest state, especially in the past 20 years.

Oh, and education? State matter. Even if S21 wouldn't be built, not a single cent from that could be used to finance schools.
kato2k8 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 30th, 2010, 08:59 PM   #399
czm3
Automobile lover
 
czm3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NYC/Miami
Posts: 381
Likes (Received): 147

I have a question. Does the 8 billion Euro price tag reflect profits to be made from the sale of the new land?

In the US, Boston is a leader in developing "air rights" allowing for the construction of high rises over a buried interstate highway. When I look at stuttgart on google earth, it shows a very large area in the heart of the city that is covered by railyards. I think it would be great for the city to convert that mess into a new urban neighborhood.
czm3 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 31st, 2010, 01:29 AM   #400
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21257

Quote:
Originally Posted by czm3 View Post
I have a question. Does the 8 billion Euro price tag reflect profits to be made from the sale of the new land?

In the US, Boston is a leader in developing "air rights" allowing for the construction of high rises over a buried interstate highway. When I look at stuttgart on google earth, it shows a very large area in the heart of the city that is covered by railyards. I think it would be great for the city to convert that mess into a new urban neighborhood.
Underground yard do exist, but they are utterly expensive to build and operate. Even when you have buried freeways and parking lots, you don't do maintenance and you don't refuel your car underground, for instance.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium