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Old August 25th, 2010, 06:18 PM   #421
Isek
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Hooorray! They start tearing down the "Nordflügel".

http://www.swr.de/nachrichten/bw/-/i...fmg/index.html

Look at those protesters working them self up in a lather of righteous anger!
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Old August 26th, 2010, 03:02 AM   #422
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Originally Posted by Isek View Post
Hooorray! They start tearing down the "Nordflügel".

http://www.swr.de/nachrichten/bw/-/i...fmg/index.html

Look at those protesters working them self up in a lather of righteous anger!
It's all been said before:

A majority (58%) of people who are supposedly benefitting from this don't want it.

Since approval, the costs have exploded from 2.8 to 4.1 billion euros.

The travel time benefits are minimal, about five minutes on the Munich-Frankfurt route (and the high speed line to Ulm can be realized without Stuttgart 21).

Fault tolerance and capacity are reduced (8 tracks instead of 16), preventing synchronized timetables.

There isn't much need for the areas gained, similar empty areas nearby have remained unused for ten years already.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 10:17 AM   #423
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Look at those interview at 1:00 a S21 supporter gets a massive menace by some lefti.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PcsdaM6T2c

Look at those people gathering every day at a time where everybody normal is working. Crazy, crazy.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 01:32 PM   #424
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The travel time benefits are minimal, about five minutes on the Munich-Frankfurt route (and the high speed line to Ulm can be realized without Stuttgart 21).
Well, it has been the German policy to make incremental time travel upgrades instead of massive new HSL construction, hence you need to take 5 min here, 7 min elsewhere, 4 min there to keep reducing travel times.

You can't discard a project just because "travel time benefits are minimal". If you are not building a new state-of-the-art HSL Munchen-Frankfurt, then you need a lot of small and expensive projects to keep improving travel times.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 05:23 PM   #425
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You need to invest money where you get the most benefit (minutes) per €

Why don't they just make a voting for the project?
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Old August 26th, 2010, 05:24 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by Isek View Post
Look at those interview at 1:00 a S21 supporter gets a massive menace by some lefti.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PcsdaM6T2c

Look at those people gathering every day at a time where everybody normal is working. Crazy, crazy.
Wow, what the hell is wrong in Stuttgart? Why are the protesters crying? Are they afraid of progress? This video (and these protests) show how mass hysteria can form. It's a train station for god's sake.

Filthy hippies need to get a job. People like that suck much more money out of the state with their endless unemployment. Video like this would be expected from a place like Berlin or cottbus, but not from (economically healthy) Baden W.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 08:27 PM   #427
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Why don't they just make a voting for the project?
Most Western democracies, for the better and for the worse, don't work like Switzerland.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 10:41 PM   #428
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It was possible in Bavaria.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 10:45 PM   #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphorn2 View Post
It's all been said before:

A majority (58%) of people who are supposedly benefitting from this don't want it.

Since approval, the costs have exploded from 2.8 to 4.1 billion euros.

The travel time benefits are minimal, about five minutes on the Munich-Frankfurt route (and the high speed line to Ulm can be realized without Stuttgart 21).

Fault tolerance and capacity are reduced (8 tracks instead of 16), preventing synchronized timetables.

There isn't much need for the areas gained, similar empty areas nearby have remained unused for ten years already.
Especially that ICE trains are supposed to stop at all the state capitals PLUS the secondary cities in these states enroute.

It is almost impossible to build dedicated high speed lines in Germany.

Did those crying protesters actually care about that building in the past?

It is just as fast, perhaps even faster, as to travel between Frankfurt and Munich via Nürnberg these days.

Stuttgart can get ready to play a bigger role for the future or remain as it is while constantly fantasizing about it is a legitimate rival to Munich in the local press.
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Old August 26th, 2010, 11:26 PM   #430
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Especially that ICE trains are supposed to stop at all the state capitals PLUS the secondary cities in these states enroute.

It is almost impossible to build dedicated high speed lines in Germany.
I couldn't possibly agree more, aab! That said, we are all "slaves of our past". When high-speed came to France it was sold to all the population of all the country as "our new jetplane on rails". Even the design of the first generation of TGV trains was dictated by this. It was not very aerodynamic. The design was totally dictated by a wish to make the snout and cabin of the train look like the front 7 metres of a passenger aircraft - to bring home, again, the message that this is NOT a train to connect neighbouring cities but a "faux plane" to connect remote parts of the country.

I have the impression, however, that this was NOT how the ICEs were sold to the German public? When I read German newspapers these days (and certain postings on this forum) I get the impression that the thinking is that ICE should bring improvements within an existing railway network infrastructure? If so,this would effectively impede changes that speed up - just as an example - Munich/Hamburg by refusing to let the train stop in any town with less than 1 million inhabitants.

That's, in my view, the main difference. To the French public, the planes between Marseilles and Paris did not land in Lyon and therefore the TGVs between Marseilles and Paris should not stop in Lyon either. To the German public. the trains between Hamburg and Munich used to stop in Kassel, and therefore the ICEs should also stop in Kassel.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 01:31 AM   #431
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Are they afraid of progress? [...] Filthy hippies need to get a job.
Why do you assert they don't want progress? They want the maximum progress for their tax money, and Stuttgart 21 has way too few benefits for its huge pricetag. And do you think all 58% of Stuttgart inhabitants who oppose the project are dirty and unemployed?

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It is just as fast, perhaps even faster, as to travel between Frankfurt and Munich via Nürnberg these days.
Why do you bring up travel time? In terms of travel time, this station is quite irrelevant. The new one saves about five minutes. What really saves time the high speed line between Stuttgart and Ulm, and that is not what these people protest.

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To the German public. the trains between Hamburg and Munich used to stop in Kassel, and therefore the ICEs should also stop in Kassel.
Why do you advocate Stuttgart 21 if you want fewer stops? Stuttgart 21 will actually increase the number of stops between Munichand Frankfurt by adding Stuttgart airport.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 01:58 AM   #432
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Why do you assert they don't want progress? They want the maximum progress for their tax money, and Stuttgart 21 has way too few benefits for its huge pricetag. And do you think all 58% of Stuttgart inhabitants who oppose the project are dirty and unemployed?


Why do you bring up travel time? In terms of travel time, this station is quite irrelevant. The new one saves about five minutes. What really saves time the high speed line between Stuttgart and Ulm, and that is not what these people protest.


Why do you advocate Stuttgart 21 if you want fewer stops? Stuttgart 21 will actually increase the number of stops between Munich and Frankfurt by adding Stuttgart airport.
The 5-minute time saving probably does not take the possible future high speed lines between Frankfurt and Stuttgart into account. What about making the city a new major railroad junction between Paris and eastern Europe? Many German cities have ICE connections to the airports and trade fair grounds. Stuttgart Airport happens to have the trade fair grounds on-site and sits right next to a major autobahn.

In other European cities besides Switzerland, new four-platform high speed stations will be built way beyond the centers of non-capital or medium-size cities with only bus connections to the city centers to make the high speed rail journey 30 minutes faster. When you want to have the traditional German integrated railway network PLUS high speed rail PLUS urban renewal PLUS the latest development trend in the railroad development within Germany, you will end up with an expensive project.

It is perplexing that many citizens in Stuttgart do not take the economic growth provided by the land freed up by the current station into serious considerations. It is rather obvious that these citizens are so emotionally fired up without looking at the big picture. The big picture is more than just the Stuttgart - Ulm high speed line. It is not and will not be the first time citizens in a city oppose to a large-scale projects because of anti-all-development grass-roots movements.

Last edited by aab7772003; September 2nd, 2010 at 02:27 PM.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 02:05 AM   #433
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Why do you assert they don't want progress? They want the maximum progress for their tax money, and Stuttgart 21 has way too few benefits for its huge pricetag.
They'd rather keep their old dingy station, so yeah. I was at Stuttgart hbf about 10 years ago, I'm sure it hasn't improved with age. There are huge benefits here, with the majority going to Stuttgart itself not the DB service. Unfortunately few in that city seem to have any vision.

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And do you think all 58% of Stuttgart inhabitants who oppose the project are dirty and unemployed?
I don't see 58% of stuttgarters protesting this development in the afternoon on a weekday so no I don't. Then again, despite their opposition I doubt they're crying about it either.... €4B over ten years isn't that much either. This is much worse than that transrapid debacle in Munich a few years back....
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Old August 27th, 2010, 05:07 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by Isek View Post
Hooorray! They start tearing down the "Nordflügel".

http://www.swr.de/nachrichten/bw/-/i...fmg/index.html

Look at those protesters working them self up in a lather of righteous anger!
Very nice. Those smelly hippie protesters will be exhausted soon.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 06:36 AM   #435
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Originally Posted by earthJoker View Post
You need to invest money where you get the most benefit (minutes) per €

Why don't they just make a voting for the project?
What point is voting? It's not like the general public really have any knowledge in this area. If you ask people to vote for public transport infrastructure, you'd probably always get a no vote since most people drive and pay enough taxes in that area. They wouldn't want to pay again for public transport.


But why stress over it. It's getting done now anyway.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 06:41 AM   #436
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Why do you assert they don't want progress? They want the maximum progress for their tax money, and Stuttgart 21 has way too few benefits for its huge pricetag. And do you think all 58% of Stuttgart inhabitants who oppose the project are dirty and unemployed?
Are you trying to tell me they are that concerned over tax expenditure? They should be so lucky! By the looks of those protesters, and the fact they are protesting instead of working, I can safely assume I pay a hell of a lot more tax than they do, so technically, I should have a bigger say ;O)

As for the 58% of Stuttgart inhabitants who oppose the project, well, it's a tax question isn't it. Ask the same people of Stuttgart if they pay too much tax and see what the result is.

Life is not always perfect. We all have to pay tax, and 90% of it goes to things we personally never use. Why should my tax money go to German Universities since I will never use them? Hey, I guess it should because others need them. That's life.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 08:36 AM   #437
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What point is voting? It's not like the general public really have any knowledge in this area. If you ask people to vote for public transport infrastructure, you'd probably always get a no vote since most people drive and pay enough taxes in that area. They wouldn't want to pay again for public transport.
Because they are the ones that are paying the shit: The taxpayers.

And you couldn't be more wrong about the public vote, we have over 150 years of experiences in it and there have been several voting for infrastructure. The longest tunnel of the world is currently constructed on the basis of a public vote.

I know that the Germans are afraid of too much democracy, but the case in Bavaria showed that it is a way to settle a disputed decision.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 10:10 AM   #438
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^ I disagree. The Switzerland particularly history might have made direct voting a good solution. However, the major problem is that infrastructure decisions put under direct voting is that they are not binary mutually exclusive questions like pro-death penalty or against-death penalty, pro-Mosques or against-Mosques, pro-homosexual partnerships or against and so on...

Most people will never use 90% of infrastructure built in any city. So you could easy reason that people would vote against most projects unless a wider, national vote was put on, say, a national rail investment program, so people couldn't vote yes to the line they will use and give a no to everyone else. However, then you have another problem: local people affected directly by those plans (e.g., the ones whose houses will be demolished and who are going to be relocated) will cry out that their individual rights have not been respected.

Moreover, Switzerland has a long history of local compromises about how the State functions are financed. Public finances work quite different in Germany.

In any case, results in Switzeland sometimes are suboptimal. They don't build a second road Gotthard tunnel, yet they unfairly give trucks heading from Uri to Ticino preference for crossing the tunnel when there are queues. Were CH part of EU, that would be ruled out as anti-fair trade practice.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 10:34 AM   #439
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Most people will never use 90% of infrastructure built in any city. So you could easy reason that people would vote against most projects unless a wider, national vote was put on, say, a national rail investment program, so people couldn't vote yes to the line they will use and give a no to everyone else. However, then you have another problem: local people affected directly by those plans (e.g., the ones whose houses will be demolished and who are going to be relocated) will cry out that their individual rights have not been respected.
You can look at the voting of the Glattalbahn, which will only be used by a few, that this is not really the case. Infrastrucural votings have good chances as soon as you can explain the benefits. Of course a voting has to be done on the same scale as the project, so probably this one would be voted by whole Baden-Wüttenberg.
Quote:
Moreover, Switzerland has a long history of local compromises about how the State functions are financed. Public finances work quite different in Germany.

In any case, results in Switzeland sometimes are suboptimal. They don't build a second road Gotthard tunnel, yet they unfairly give trucks heading from Uri to Ticino preference for crossing the tunnel when there are queues. Were CH part of EU, that would be ruled out as anti-fair trade practice.
Switzerland is part of the fair transport agreement, this priority queuing is only given to ensure the lokal supply. The EU is actually monitoring it.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 10:57 AM   #440
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Switzerland is part of the fair transport agreement, this priority queuing is only given to ensure the lokal supply. The EU is actually monitoring it.
As it usually happens, CH carved out special provision to accommodate AlpTransit within the EU treaties. I'm not saying it is necessarily bad, as CH is not part from UE, but is still unfair. If they cherish the "move stuff from roads to rail", they should be the first to give example and haul their Ticino-bound supplies by rail. Because Italy has to be supplied too, CH only passes the bill, in form of traffic, to Austria - but this is a discussion for another topic.
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