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Old August 27th, 2010, 11:31 AM   #441
Isek
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There is a pretty awesome live-stream of the happenings around the "Nordflügel"!

http://webcam.schrem.eu/
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Old August 27th, 2010, 11:35 AM   #442
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^ I disagree. The Switzerland particularly history might have made direct voting a good solution. However, the major problem is that infrastructure decisions put under direct voting is that they are not binary mutually exclusive questions like pro-death penalty or against-death penalty, pro-Mosques or against-Mosques, pro-homosexual partnerships or against and so on...
The choices don't have to be binary. When the rebuild of the Bahnhofplatz in Bern was put to a vote a few years ago the voters got to choose between several alternatives.

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Most people will never use 90% of infrastructure built in any city. So you could easy reason that people would vote against most projects unless a wider, national vote was put on, say, a national rail investment program, so people couldn't vote yes to the line they will use and give a no to everyone else. However, then you have another problem: local people affected directly by those plans (e.g., the ones whose houses will be demolished and who are going to be relocated) will cry out that their individual rights have not been respected.
That's why you must make sure that there is something in it for most people. That is why for example the SBB published a table that showed how much time would be gained, for each (major) station pair in Switzerland when the Rail2000 timetable was designed. This to show that (almost) everyone would benefit. It's also for this reason that the new line from Bern to Olten is also used for freight at night. Removing trains from the old line at night means less noise for the people living along that line, so they got something out of the project too.


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In any case, results in Switzeland sometimes are suboptimal. They don't build a second road Gotthard tunnel,(...).
The fact that they don't vote the way they according to your opinion ought to doesn't mean it's suboptimal. However that's not really an issue. It's a small price to pay for living in a free and prosperous country...
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Old August 27th, 2010, 11:47 AM   #443
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As it usually happens, CH carved out special provision to accommodate AlpTransit within the EU treaties. I'm not saying it is necessarily bad, as CH is not part from UE, but is still unfair. If they cherish the "move stuff from roads to rail", they should be the first to give example and haul their Ticino-bound supplies by rail. Because Italy has to be supplied too, CH only passes the bill, in form of traffic, to Austria - but this is a discussion for another topic.
Switzerland transports more domestic freight by rail than any European country, so they are definitely setting the right example.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 12:45 PM   #444
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There was a vote. The vote was for the government which is currently in power. We vote the government in, to make these very decisions. If we don't like how they used their time in office, we vote them out in the next election.

Now, what is the point in voting in a government, whether local, state or federal, when we don't actually want them to do their job, but insist that everything must have seperate votes so the public can decide?!

No. The government was elected, and if you don't like their decisions, vote them out. But they were voted in to make such decisions.

So, why continue to complain about all this. In a few days the wing will be rubble on the ground, and construction will begin.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 02:01 PM   #445
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No. The government was elected, and if you don't like their decisions, vote them out. But they were voted in to make such decisions.
What if you like some of their decisions, and don't like some others?
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Old August 27th, 2010, 02:33 PM   #446
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What if you like some of their decisions, and don't like some others?
Then you have to compromise. Twisted and hijacked as some political platforms might be (for instance: pro-gay marriages and environwackos banding together in reciprocal support), they work better than atomized decisions.

Moreover, you can't just cast votes easily on complex issues. One thing is like to choose the new design of a Bern's plaza. Other thing is how to approach the intricate issues of air traffic management and airport expansion in a whole country, whereas you can't just vote for a runway here but not there, a new CDA-equipped airport here but not with a better control tower or so.

I strongly support, for instance, national-level laws, that could, then, be put to vote, to provide a general framework to each infrastructure area (air transport, road transport, electricity production and distribution and so), whereas strong anti-NIMBY provisions would be determined, with protection and proper compensation for those affected directly (but not a dime for things like "lost of community character" of "deterioration of social fabric").

The better example of misuse of direct vote are California's ballot propositions. They curtailed the ability to raise taxes, and imposed a lot of obligatory expenses. As a result, California is pretty much financially broken in terms of its public finances.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 06:12 PM   #447
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Switzerland transports more domestic freight by rail than any European country, so they are definitely setting the right example.
Around 28% rail share of domestic transport (in ton*km), 44% in total share (in ton*km), 66% in transalpine traffic (in ton).

=================

About Stuttgart 21: reducing the number of tracks is not really a good idea...even going from 16 stub to 8 passing.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 06:28 PM   #448
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What if you like some of their decisions, and don't like some others?
Huh? Isn't that always the case? Who likes every decision the government ever makes? There is no possible way any elected government could ever make everyone totally happy. Every single person is different.
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Old August 27th, 2010, 08:32 PM   #449
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Huh? Isn't that always the case? Who likes every decision the government ever makes? There is no possible way any elected government could ever make everyone totally happy. Every single person is different.
That is a very strong argument in favor of direct democracy.
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Old August 28th, 2010, 08:40 AM   #450
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That is a very strong argument in favor of direct democracy.
Only for someone on a monologue.

Then again, protesters tend to love the sound of their own voice, especially at high volumes.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 09:24 PM   #451
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Who buys Arriva Deutschland?

Following the takeover of Arriva by DB (Schenker) it has to sell Arriva Deutschland (Germany).

According to Eurailpress.de approx. 30 companies are interested.

We should be able to name some. Who? Why? Who do we prefer?

Abellio (former NedRailways)
DSB
HHA (Hamburg Hochbahn)
SNCF (possibly via Veolia/Keolis)

I will add companies to this opening post.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 09:30 PM   #452
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Who buys Arriva Deutschland?

Following the takeover of Arriva by DB (Schenker) it has to sell Arriva Deutschland (Germany).

According to Eurailpress.de approx. 30 companies are interested.

We should be able to name some. Who? Why? Who do we prefer?

Abellio (former NedRailways)
DSB
HHA (Hamburg Hochbahn)
SNCF (possibly via Veolia/Keolis)

I will add named companies to this opening post.
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Old September 7th, 2010, 11:27 PM   #453
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OBB.

Amidioinitrite?
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Old September 8th, 2010, 03:09 PM   #454
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I'd prefer SJ to take over. They run their railways efficiently enough and turn a profit overall too.
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Old September 19th, 2010, 05:25 PM   #455
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DSB of Denmark is very interested in this for sure, they already won one rail in Germany, and their main foreign focus is Germany.

They got a rather bad reputation in Denmark, but that's because its a government owned company, which didn't get the needed money to maintain the rail system, but in the last years they been doing much better! and that's partly from the money in foreign rails.

Edit: I now heard that there's 10 companies, where DSB is one of them. But DSB has some problems, because its owned by the Danish government, which is liberal, at the moment, and therefore wish to sell DSB. So, a few weeks ago DSB lounged a cellphone company, which was closed 4 days later by the government, who where pissed off, they say its because DSB is only meant to do railways, but its probably because they don't want DSB to do too good.

Last edited by Alseimik; September 28th, 2010 at 11:53 PM. Reason: New information appeared...
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Old October 1st, 2010, 12:51 AM   #456
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Old October 1st, 2010, 01:01 AM   #457
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what i want to know is this: what are the alternatives these NIMBY terrorists are offering?

dont travel? leave downtown stuttgart like its been bombed? drive to paris?
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Old October 1st, 2010, 01:14 AM   #458
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This in a sense would be like building Diridon station in San jose to this standard. What I wonder is if people would have minded something above ground.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 01:17 AM   #459
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The project plan to reduce the number of track from 16 (stub end) to 8 (passing), so reducing the possibility to make good connections and maybe capacity, and this isn't really a good achievement for a 5 billion project.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 01:24 AM   #460
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Very nice. Hope the hippies learned their lesson.
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