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Old October 1st, 2010, 01:27 AM   #461
gramercy
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i doubt it very much that the planners of db got it wrong and these nimbys got it right

also, on a sidenote, if the platform is long enough than it can serve 2 trains simultaneously, they can wait behind each other same as next to each other in a stub
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Old October 1st, 2010, 01:57 AM   #462
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The project plan to reduce the number of track from 16 (stub end) to 8 (passing), so reducing the possibility to make good connections and maybe capacity, and this isn't really a good achievement for a 5 billion project.
thats rubbish...

it doesn't matter if there are 16 stub track or 8 passing tracks...
what matters is that there are currently only 5 tracks that lead into the dead end station with 16 tracks....the new station will have 4 track on each side passing the 8 tracks station

so its not a bad idea at all
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Old October 1st, 2010, 02:17 AM   #463
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In my opinion building only 8 tracks (even if you can use them for two short trains each at a time) is risky if traffic rise further and a symmetric timetable planned, but except that I like the project.

Just like the 4 tracks on the east-west line in Berlin Hauptbahnhof.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 02:31 AM   #464
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ok it might be a little risky but there's still the station in bad cannstatt near by...which can absorb rising traffic as well just in case.

but i dont think it will be necessary...for example the mainstation in hamburg has just 8 passing tracks as well and theres much more traffic than in stuttgart.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 04:28 AM   #465
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Odd all the complaints about turning the station into a pass through. After years of running rail networks, it has clearly been seen that pass through stations are far more efficient, which is why most modern stations are built that way. Surely, if it were to disadvantage Stuttgart to change to a pass through, then everything every network in the world has found out all of a sudden is wrong.

I also find it amazing how the Greens are so against this project. They don't want us to fly and tell us to use the trains, but then they oppose so many rail infrastructure programs. We would have had a maglev line between Berlin and Hamburg by now if the Greens didn't oppose it.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 07:43 AM   #466
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I also find it amazing how the Greens are so against this project. They don't want us to fly and tell us to use the trains, but then they oppose so many rail infrastructure programs. We would have had a maglev line between Berlin and Hamburg by now if the Greens didn't oppose it.
The Greens want you to stay at home and grow your own food, sew your own clothes etc...
Germany really needs a "Grunliberale Partei", like Switzerland.
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Old October 1st, 2010, 09:22 PM   #467
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The Greens want you to stay at home and grow your own food, sew your own clothes etc...
Germany really needs a "Grunliberale Partei", like Switzerland.
But then Jürgen Trittin has no qualms about flying first class and business class when traveling; he knows very well that he will seriously pollute the environment with his indulgence

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Old October 1st, 2010, 10:06 PM   #468
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where is teleportation when you need it

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Old October 2nd, 2010, 12:11 AM   #469
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I dont see a problem with connecting the airport to the railway. There aren´t that many airports in Baden-Württemberg, Airport Stuttgart is the only big airport. So it vastly improves the connections for people who don´t live in Stuttgart (and have to use the S-Bahn right now, which takes 30min from the station to the airport, +5min to get from the train to the S-Bahn and +0 to 20min wait time for the right S-Bahn to arrive). I think the connection to the airport is a big advantage and not a disadvantage.

The problem with delayed trains you described already exists with the current station, an arriving train that´s delayed for a few minutes already causes rails to be blocked because it crosses those rails. It also already causes other trains to wait for passengers.

And about Kopfbahnhof21: The project isn´t that much cheaper. Some components that are said by the critics to be too cheap in the calculations for S21 are even cheaper in the calculations for K21. Plus you also have to subtract the money the EU is willing to spend on S21 (and not on K21) and now also the fact that contracts for S21 have to be breached, which is hardly legal and also estimated to costs of ~1,4 billion €. Also, for the faster track to Ulm that´s included in K21 you need space for the rails. Which means you´ll have to remove a whole line of houses in Bad Canstatt. I think there would be even more people protesting against K21 than against S21.
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Old October 4th, 2010, 01:29 AM   #470
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In my opinion building only 8 tracks (even if you can use them for two short trains each at a time) is risky if traffic rise further and a symmetric timetable planned, but except that I like the project.
You might be obsessed with it in Switzerland. The rest of the world can live without it.

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Just like the 4 tracks on the east-west line in Berlin Hauptbahnhof.
There are actually just 2 mainline tracks.
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Old October 4th, 2010, 11:04 AM   #471
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You might be obsessed with it in Switzerland. The rest of the world can live without it.
While I have nothing against the Swiss (well, I have, they refuse to build a 2nd Gotthard road bore...), I don't understand why some people want a model that might be fit for a decentralized, small and politically treacherous country like Switzerland to another country very different, in the case, the most populated country in Europe with distinct population centers (Frankfurt, Rhein-Ruhr, München, Berlin) and an area that, contrary to CH, doesn't warrant centrally planning a whole system like it was a big overground metro.

Germany has different realities from Switzerland. If it were to have the same rail transport model, it is unlikely that high-speed corridors like Frankfurt-Köln or Hamburg-Berlin would have been built because "there is so much to improve in local tracks before and that will bring overall journey times lower to more people".
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Old October 4th, 2010, 11:50 AM   #472
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You might be obsessed with it in Switzerland. The rest of the world can live without it.
Germany has a symmetric, interval timetable. So have other countries. The concept isn't even Swiss, as it is the Dutch that came up with this idea.
What the Swiss are "obsessed" with, is producing as much value as possible given the existing infrastructure. Why that would be a bad thing to copy is beyond me.
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Old October 4th, 2010, 12:20 PM   #473
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What the Swiss are "obsessed" with, is producing as much value as possible given the existing infrastructure. Why that would be a bad thing to copy is beyond me.
Swiss plan their rail system with (IMO) an outdated practice of focusing on reducing, marginally, journey times overall, without creating any decent high-speed corridor like Zürich-Genève or Basel-Lugano.

In a certain way they have to do it because of a very fragmented decision process, but it's their business after all.

In that context, that passengers travelling from Genève to Zürich will probably never have a 320 km/h dedicated HSL full of tunnels to use, having to cope with ordinary Intercity trains instead that call in other places, is just a nuisance as "majority of people never travel so far and investment in local improvements yields more overall journey time reduction".

Again, that might work for Switzerland, but it wouldn't work for Germany. Germany can't and shouldn't plan it's rail investments about an obsession of "how the new timetable will be like". They need to reduce, drastically, travel time between major population centers if they want a rail system capable of providing healthy competition to air travel as they said they want.

I'd bet that if any country that has ever built a HSR in Europe (save for the Eurotunnel, which is a particular case) had taken an approach like the Swiss, the overall high-speed, segregated, dedicated to long-distance travel only trackage in Europe would be 1.000km in the best case scenario.

Germany is already lacking shinny new HSR tracks over which private operators can run trains built with state-of-the-art design and features. If they slowed down major projects in the name of improving live of commuters (who, counted as either a % of trafficXkm or, let alone, % of total passengers, will be always the majority of users of a subsidized rail system - though Italy is in its way to change that), they would be stuck even further behind.

If the Swiss model had been replicated in Europe, a Thalys train Frankfurt-Brussels wouldn't exist, for instance. A Frankfurt-Paris high-speed train capable of competing with rail wouldn't either...

But there are those who still think Germany would be better off with no new HSR but an "improved network of night-trains" instead Some ppl slept in 1984 and never woke up.
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Old October 4th, 2010, 03:52 PM   #474
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What the Swiss are "obsessed" with, is producing as much value as possible given the existing infrastructure. Why that would be a bad thing to copy is beyond me.
Because the existing infrastructure lacks the ability to cut travel times significantly for distances between 400 and 800 km. The Swiss approach can't compete with other modes of transport in this range.
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Old October 4th, 2010, 06:48 PM   #475
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Symmetry (that is more than a cadenced timetable) is a property of the timetable, that ease planification and may reduce costs, and is absolutely unrelated to speed. It doesn't mean that all trains must stop everywhere. For example the Italian high speed timetable is symmetric. Even the Milano-Roma non-stop.
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Old October 4th, 2010, 09:48 PM   #476
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That will end with N.T.V., coming soon to offer HS services in Italy
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Old October 4th, 2010, 10:02 PM   #477
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what a stupid reply
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Old October 4th, 2010, 10:41 PM   #478
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That will end with N.T.V., coming soon to offer HS services in Italy
Want to bet on that?
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Old October 4th, 2010, 11:45 PM   #479
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I certainly don't want
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Old October 5th, 2010, 12:46 AM   #480
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Don't you think NTV is in for serious business? Unbounded by any need of keeping a "day long service", something even forward-thinking Trenitalia is obliged to, they will be able to undercut Trenitalia prices running only at peak times, when Trenitalia trains are fuller.

I read that a German competitor already applied to run HS services on Frankfurt-Hamburg-Berlin Route. Does anyone know of that?
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