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Old October 8th, 2010, 08:23 PM   #521
thun
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What if a car is not a option for whatever reason?
And what if I would have a fancy smartphone, but trains running unregularily (and typically when I don't need them)? Then most people would still be willed to pay higher fares and have regular services.
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Old October 8th, 2010, 10:22 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Trying to justify the opposite (that 60-minutes intervals are the global optimum) is just to fool with basic math and physic, as the division of a solar day in 24 hours of 60 minutes each is merely done for convenience.
Some other bases (like 20 instead of 60 minutes) may also work even if they may not repeat every hour.

But telling that structured timetables are not worth studying and that trains should running randomly is like saying that teching grammar to children is a limit to their freedom to speach
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Old October 8th, 2010, 11:51 PM   #523
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But telling that structured timetables are not worth studying and that trains should running randomly is like saying that teching grammar to children is a limit to their freedom to speach
I didn't say necessarily random, but in intervals different than 60 and its easy divisors (30, 20, 15, 12, 6, 5, 3, 2 and 1). People are not supposed to memorize the timetable of their trains, they are supposed to CONSULT the timetable before leaving the home, if possible, supposed to buy a ticket online also.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 01:50 AM   #524
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But if they are enabled to memorize the timetable, they will find it more convenient than being forced to consult the schedulefor every single trip. And, as I said twice already, they will be fine paying a price premium for that convenience.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 02:30 AM   #525
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The main "problem" in terms of economic feasibility is that the German rail system is a "net" (like the Swiss one) and not a "spider" (like in France, Spain and to a certain point Italy).
There are several equally important north-south respectively east-west corridors where passengers spread. In France everyone is (or rather has to) go to Paris, in Spain to Madrid (in Italy, due to the geography, with one HSL you can cover most of the countries' ridership, too). Hence, passenger numbers on those corridors are much higher which justifies massive investments in only a few of them as you cover most passengers. That's not possible in Germany: If you build a HSL on most lines, ridership wouldn't get as high as it could justify the massive amount of money spent on a single line. And for the country it is much more difficult to derive an economic profit out of the investment. Therefore, one can easily argue (and would have a point) that the money would be better used to upgrate several existing corridors as a larger share of all train passengers would derive increased utility out of it and not only an exclusive circle. Therefore, the German practice isn't as "misguided" as it might look like. In fact, in that point of view, comparing the French and the German network is to a certain point like comparing apples and oranges.

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...

Frankfurt - Munich via Nürnberg
Frankfurt - Munich via Stuttgart
Frankfurt - Berlin via Hannover
Berlin - Hamburg
Frankfurt -Hamburg via Hannover
Cologne - Hamburg via Hannover
Frankfurt - Cologne

...
It does not change that fact that there are very obvious "centers of gravity" in the German long-distance network.

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Originally Posted by thun View Post
In France everyone is (or rather has to) go to Paris, in Spain to Madrid (in Italy, due to the geography, with one HSL you can cover most of the countries' ridership, too). Hence, passenger numbers on those corridors are much higher which justifies massive investments in only a few of them as you cover most passengers. That's not possible in Germany: If you build a HSL on most lines, ridership wouldn't get as high as it could justify the massive amount of money spent on a single line. And for the country it is much more difficult to derive an economic profit out of the investment. Therefore, one can easily argue (and would have a point) that the money would be better used to upgrate several existing corridors as a larger share of all train passengers would derive increased utility out of it and not only an exclusive circle. Therefore, the German practice isn't as "misguided" as it might look like. In fact, in that point of view, comparing the French and the German network is to a certain point like comparing apples and oranges.
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Therefore, one can easily argue (and would have a point) that the money would be better used to upgrate several existing corridors as a larger share of all train passengers would derive increased utility out of it and not only an exclusive circle. Therefore, the German practice isn't as "misguided" as it might look like. In fact, in that point of view, comparing the French and the German network is to a certain point like comparing apples and oranges.
Quite misguided actually. DB is going to London all the way now. Can you just transport passengers to all these destinations across Europe from various big city centers in Germany at the current speed in the long term? No. The silly incremental upgrade talk is based on zero network growth and the same small service areas.

Where is the vision? All these silly arguments would be similar to people who are against airport runway constructions because they only fly half-way across the world a couple of times a year at most and do not believe that many people for far away would be interested in reaching their destinations and regions.

Last edited by aab7772003; October 13th, 2010 at 12:03 AM.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 03:10 AM   #526
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"All these" being London?

I'm afraid you can't compare DBs foreign operations with their domestic network. They operate a only a few foreign lines (like the ones to London and Milan) and will never run dense, integrated network. So they of course can choose the most profitable and fastest lines for that. But in Germany they have to cover most of the country with adequate services, so incremental upgrates (as you call them) certainly make sense. they wouldn't do on services like the London route though. Again, apples and oranges.

Who says that there has to be network growth on a large scale at all? It makes sense to build a core network, for sure. But where it isn't economically justifiable to build a HSL, upgrating the existing lines for much less money might be the better option. There are only a few corridors (in every country, not only Germany!) where a HSL makes really sense. The money is invested better somewhere else (other passenger services or increased freight capacity). Efficient and convenient rail services don't necessarily have to be HSR, although some people here easily forget about that (or have never heard at all).
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Old October 9th, 2010, 03:57 AM   #527
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"All these" being London?

I'm afraid you can't compare DBs foreign operations with their domestic network. They operate a only a few foreign lines (like the ones to London and Milan) and will never run dense, integrated network. So they of course can choose the most profitable and fastest lines for that. But in Germany they have to cover most of the country with adequate services, so incremental upgrates (as you call them) certainly make sense. they wouldn't do on services like the London route though. Again, apples and oranges.

Who says that there has to be network growth on a large scale at all? It makes sense to build a core network, for sure. But where it isn't economically justifiable to build a HSL, upgrating the existing lines for much less money might be the better option. There are only a few corridors (in every country, not only Germany!) where a HSL makes really sense. The money is invested better somewhere else (other passenger services or increased freight capacity). Efficient and convenient rail services don't necessarily have to be HSR, although some people here easily forget about that (or have never heard at all).
A "few" foreign "lines"? Such as London, Paris, Baudrecourt, Strasbourg, Brussels, Liege, Amsterdam, Utrecht, Linz, Innsbruck, Salzburg, Vienna, Milan, Verona, Basel, Bern, Interlaken, Zurich, Copenhagen, Prague, etc.? Services between the foreign and German destinations are completely integrated into the DB system timetable, according to all the timetables found on the trains to and from those aforesaid destinations. Please do not imagine that these services are some kind of overnight sleeper services for a moment.

By the way, the so called "core" network in Germany is the heavily subsidized RE, IRE services. If it were "economically justifiable," it would not be heavily subsidized!

When you build an HSR line, the original tracks are relegated to the IRE, RE, IC and freight services. There comes the increased freight capacity.

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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post

...

Keep upgrading the Munich - Nürnberg line via Regensburg and see how fast it will get you eventually!
Believing that it is possible to upgrade the 19th-century-standard Nürnberg - Würzburg - Aschaffenburg - Frankfurt line into the 21st century standard is just pure fantasy!

TODAY, the travel time between Paris and Munich is 6.25 hours with only the Paris - Strasbourg high speed tracks. It will be reduced to around 4.75 hours in the future when Stuttgart 21 and the second phrase of LGV Est are completed. It is obvious to see that the travel time between Paris and Munich would last as much as 8 hours with the "incremental" upgrades only.

Stuttgart is neither Munich nor Paris. Even the future Wien Hauptbahnhof will be a through train station. If Stuttgart were not jammed into a valley, a surface through train station would be considered instead.

Efficient and convenient rail services don't necessarily have to be HSR, yes, in a closed service area of Switzerland or the Netherlands, indeed! By the way, "some people" here conveniently forget about other many factors, such as the EU European rail network development plan, when they only want to believe the infallibility of the Swiss system.

Last edited by aab7772003; October 13th, 2010 at 12:47 AM.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 11:59 AM   #528
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Well well, am schweizer Wesen soll die Welt also genesen. Just that you forget to mention that the Swiss railways despite the huge investments in it are still awfully slow and simply not competitive on medium and long distances.
How can the Swiss Railways at the same time have "to many passengers" as their main concern and not be competitive... On quite a few "medium" distances the SBB is even a lot faster than all the available alternatives. (Brig - Zürich for example).

Given the Geography the Swiss railways are quite fast actually, and the "system speed" is pretty good, because of little time lost in transfers.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 12:05 PM   #529
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With computers and smartphones, it is borderline joking to say people still needs train running every 60 (instead of every 53 or 71) minutes!
The reason for a train every hour (or every half hour) is that many other activities also go by the hour or the half hour. I don't work multiples of 53 minutes, few people do.

I have a smartphone that gives me real time information about departures of local public transit. Still I find it convenient that to go home I just have to leave the office at x:15 and x:45

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Want to scrap the searching costs? Buy a car. No schedule required.
Yeah, there are absolutely no "searching" involved when you operate a car... right.
You tell me where to find that iPhone app that gives me voice directions to the nearest free parking spot...
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Old October 9th, 2010, 12:12 PM   #530
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It's ONE of many possible industrial philosophies in regard of traffic management. Not the only one, not best one for all scenarios.
Every single transit system that want to a cadenced timetable has seen it's use increase substantially. It is one of the most effective way of increasing passenger numbers. It is so singularly effective that everyone is adopting it.

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In this era of high computational powers, it should be completely irrelevant whether you are planning a cadenced timetable or not! It's just a OP mathematical problem that a good multi-core set could easily process. There is no purely technical reasons to use timetables with a 57, 64, 73, 48, 91 minutes - even if a cadenced (but non-hourly) timetable were adopted.
The important thing is that the whole system uses the same pattern. So you could indeed use 57 minutes, as long as everyone did so. If you are going to standardise the interval country or europe wide, the logical choice is 60 minutes.

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Trying to justify the opposite (that 60-minutes intervals are the global optimum) is just to fool with basic math and physic, as the division of a solar day in 24 hours of 60 minutes each is merely done for convenience.
It is indeed done for convenience. What do you have against public transport being convenient?
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Old October 9th, 2010, 02:53 PM   #531
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How can the Swiss Railways at the same time have "to many passengers" as their main concern and not be competitive
Because other transport modes still carry much more passengers than public transport services.
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On quite a few "medium" distances the SBB is even a lot faster than all the available alternatives. (Brig - Zürich for example).
Given the Geography the Swiss railways are quite fast actually, and the "system speed" is pretty good, because of little time lost in transfers.
You seem to have a rather bizarre perception of the word fast. The SBB struggles on almost all routes to keep up with the speed of road traffic. Maybe not on routes to Brig. But almost almost everywhere else. Not to mention that it never beat air traffic.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 04:58 PM   #532
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Because other transport modes still carry much more passengers than public transport services.
Yes, but only in general. On main destinations this is not true. Rail share between the cities of Bern and Zürich is 88%, and 73% between Zürich and St. Gallen. On the Gotthard this is 50% for passengers and 66% for freight.

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You seem to have a rather bizarre perception of the word fast. The SBB struggles on almost all routes to keep up with the speed of road traffic. Maybe not on routes to Brig. But almost almost everywhere else. Not to mention that it never beat air traffic.
True, but the main problem is still capacity, not speed.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 08:26 PM   #533
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Because other transport modes still carry much more passengers than public transport services.
The modal share of public transport in Switzerland is the highest in Europe. I'd call that a success. And in urban areas the majority of trips are made on public transport.

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You seem to have a rather bizarre perception of the word fast. The SBB struggles on almost all routes to keep up with the speed of road traffic. Maybe not on routes to Brig. But almost almost everywhere else. Not to mention that it never beat air traffic.
Can you tell me which airline beats the SBB on speed?
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Old October 9th, 2010, 08:44 PM   #534
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The modal share of public transport in Switzerland is the highest in Europe. I'd call that a success. And in urban areas the majority of trips are made on public transport.
Around 25 to 30% considering all trips in passengers*km, obviously more in urban areas.

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Can you tell me which airline beats the SBB on speed?
Swiss/Darwin/FlyBaboo on Lugano-Geneva
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Old October 9th, 2010, 08:52 PM   #535
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The modal share of public transport in Switzerland is the highest in Europe. I'd call that a success. And in urban areas the majority of trips are made on public transport.
What is your definition of "urban areas"? And are you sure PT accounts for >50% of all motorized trips in Switzerland, or at least of all the commute trips?
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Old October 9th, 2010, 09:45 PM   #536
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Isn't the mode share based on total passenger mileage?
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Old October 9th, 2010, 10:02 PM   #537
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It depends. In pax*km around 25% of swiss traffic uses public transport.

The numbers of trips in cities not done by private vehicles is quite high. See here: http://www.unil.ch/webdav/site/ouvdd...%20Haefeli.pdf (pages 3 and 4, among others).

And about subsidies, swiss railways and public transport systems are paid by the users from 50 to 70% (that is much) following the regions and the criteria. Obviously most small and regional lines run nearly on subsidies, but that's normal and is part of the duties of the government.
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Old October 9th, 2010, 11:55 PM   #538
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Can you tell me which airline beats the SBB on speed?
Swissair is faster between Zürich and Milano than any train the SBB has to offer. Rail is also slower from Zürich to Frankfurt/M, Paris or München.
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Old October 10th, 2010, 12:22 AM   #539
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You know that you have to add more or less an hour of bus ride to get from Maplensa to Centrale FS (if you want to do a point-to-point comparision with the train), don't you?
The Malpensa Express train takes 40min to Cadorna station, too.
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Old October 10th, 2010, 12:43 AM   #540
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I haven't experienced riding SBB or DB, but I can you tell that you guys have it good compared to many countries, especially the US.
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