daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 14th, 2010, 01:02 PM   #601
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Are you serious? Berlin-Hamburg is flat like a plate whereas Zurich - Milan crosses a mayor mountain range.
The topography might be challenging. It is, however, no insurmountable obstacle and no reason to be so slow.
The mountainous character of the rail line is currently defused by well-known engineering projects. Yet travel time between Zürich and Milano still won't nowhere near 100 min that are achieved elsewhere. The reason for this is the small-mindedness of the SBB and its dogmatic stopping pattern. Compulsive calls in small town stations like Zug or Arth-Goldau are hindering an intercity service much more than any massif.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 14th, 2010, 01:26 PM   #602
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

50% of the passengers do not go to Zürich and most change in Arth Goldau. Zug is a quite important financial city and well used (and being at the end of a single track line, together with Arth Goldau, trains have to stop to wait for crossings). A (really needed) new Zürich-Milano line would require a total of 200 km tunnels, that is, quite a lot of money.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2010, 01:59 PM   #603
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
The reason for this is the small-mindedness of the SBB and its dogmatic stopping pattern. Compulsive calls in small town stations like Zug or Arth-Goldau are hindering an intercity service much more than any massif.
The "dogmatic stopping pattern" results in more people taking the train in Switzerland than anywhere else. If results is what you gauge success by than the SBB is quite successful.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2010, 03:11 PM   #604
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
50% of the passengers do not go to Zürich and most change in Arth Goldau. Zug is a quite important financial city and well used (and being at the end of a single track line, together with Arth Goldau, trains have to stop to wait for crossings). A (really needed) new Zürich-Milano line would require a total of 200 km tunnels, that is, quite a lot of money.
Which is not surprising. Calling in small towns encourages people to use this intercity even for short trips. Meanwhile the city to city trips are done 5000 m above.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2010, 03:52 PM   #605
Suissetralia
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 389
Likes (Received): 67

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Which is not surprising. Calling in small towns encourages people to use this intercity even for short trips. Meanwhile the city to city trips are done 5000 m above.
And what's wrong with that? Rail infrastructure if quite expensive, specially in Switzerland and more specifically those railroads built in the Alps as in this case, so it might be more efficient to share part of the passangers doing the direct Milan-ZH route between the rail and the plane than putting a lot of money in new rails to improve speed and capacity while there are already two large airports in each of the two cities, two airports which independently of this decision will continue to operate because they serve many other destinations, so the expenditure in infrastructure in this case to allow the route is minimal.
Suissetralia no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2010, 03:56 PM   #606
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

That's why there should be fast trains where possible, in addition to stopping trains, both in a symmetric timetable (just like Italian high-speed trains do).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2010, 03:57 PM   #607
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dase View Post
@ aab7772003: since when is DB a private company? Just because it's a Stock company does not mean it's private. Please get your facts straight. Additionally, arguing with profit needs in the case of Stuttgart 21 is kind of strange considering the amount of subsidies involved.
I believe that Wikipedia is more accurate than you are in this case. The fact that the German government is a big shareholder of DB does not mean that the DB is a federal transport department.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Bahn

If you are talking about subsidies, do you actually know how much individual state governments subsidize their local rail services? Maybe you should calculate and amortize the construction costs of old rail lines and see whether they will make money back if at all. Where in the rest of the world you can get to travel in such an unlimited manner in one day within one federal state with those "Länderstickets"? For example, Bavaria is twice the size of Taiwan!

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Actually, the current bi-hourly Nürnberg - Munich express RE services traveling on the same ICE Nürnberg - Munich high speed tracks with travel time almost as fast as the Nürnberg - Munich ICE services are jammed packed every departure.
5 people can travel on these services for 28 Euros round trip in one day. Go to Switzerland, the country seems to make every German experience explosive orgasm these days with its "perfect" rail service thanks to the supposedly "pioneering" system timetable, and find yourself shocked to learn that you probably need to pay 28 Euros one way for the equivalent services in Switzerland!

Last edited by aab7772003; October 14th, 2010 at 05:30 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2010, 09:45 PM   #608
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Well, I would be very surprised if a profitoriented DB would build Stuttgart 21 if it would have to pay itself for it.
It's indeed profit oriented to some point, but they wouldn't invest that much money in saving only some few minutes for their ICEs as you claim.

Cost of living is generelly higher in Switzerland. And like everywhere else, the Swiss rail operators have to balance their prices, too. As long as their trains are packed, one can hardly argue that their prices are too high for the provided service.
And even if the single fare might be even higher than in Germany, e. g. in contrast to the Bahncard 100 the Generalabo is quite affordable in Switzerland. Lots of commuters have these and can basically travel for free on every mean of public transport in the whole country.


By the way, I'm absolutely in favour of the RE on the Munich-Nuremberg HSL as they provide a good service and are a good example how a HSL can provide direct utility for those who aren't joining the exclusive club of long-distance travellers. In fact, such services should be introduced on other HSLs, too.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________

Last edited by thun; October 14th, 2010 at 09:51 PM.
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2010, 10:58 PM   #609
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Well, I would be very surprised if a profitoriented DB would build Stuttgart 21 if it would have to pay itself for it.
I would be very surprised as well if DB would run all those RE, IRE, etc. without the heavy state government state government subsidies. I would be very surprised that private companies alone would build all these intercontinental airports. By the way, no profit-oriented private firms would have built the Chunnel and established the Eurostar services alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
It's indeed profit oriented to some point, but they wouldn't invest that much money in saving only some few minutes for their ICEs as you claim.
Not when DB could build the genuine, complete Stuttgart - Mannheim - Frankfurt Süd - Frankfurt Flughafen - Köln Deutz (when the final destination of the service is not Köln Hauptbahnhof but elsewhere further up north) - Köln Hauptbahnhof HSR tracks! In such routing, another 30 minutes could be easily shaved off from the Stuttgart - Köln trip.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
It only saves a couple of minutes here and there in Germany because all those NIMBYs force DB to build HSR tracks here and there and local governments makes DB ICE trains stop at stations like Hagen. The travel time between Cologne and Fankfurt would be 50 minutes instead of one hour without the two unnecessary stops!


Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post

Cost of living is generelly higher in Switzerland. And like everywhere else, the Swiss rail operators have to balance their prices, too. As long as their trains are packed, one can hardly argue that their prices are too high for the provided service.
And even if the single fare might be even higher than in Germany, e. g. in contrast to the Bahncard 100 the Generalabo is quite affordable in Switzerland. Lots of commuters have these and can basically travel for free on every mean of public transport in the whole country.
I am sure that the Swiss rave about how cheap the German rail fares are. They sure are envious of the amazingly affordable DB "Länderstickets" too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post

By the way, I'm absolutely in favour of the RE on the Munich-Nuremberg HSL as they provide a good service and are a good example how a HSL can provide direct utility for those who aren't joining the exclusive club of long-distance travellers. In fact, such services should be introduced on other HSLs, too.
I am pretty sure that similar services for the Stuttgart - Ulm route would be introduced in the future as well. ICE travels in Germany are not exclusive at all, especially often enough you can get then 19-Euro fare on the Cologne - Frankfurt sector three days before the departure date. With the the Bahncard 25, the trip would just cost 15 Euros. There is the Bahncard 50 too.

Last edited by aab7772003; October 15th, 2010 at 03:08 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 14th, 2010, 11:45 PM   #610
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

I wasn't exactly refering to high inter city fares but rather to the fact that investing in HSL only would be a wrong decision. No matter if DB would be profit-oriented or not. The regional trains are the backbone of both rail transport and their services.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2010, 12:02 AM   #611
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
I wasn't exactly refering to high inter city fares but rather to the fact that investing in HSL only would be a wrong decision. No matter if DB would be profit-oriented or not. The regional trains are the backbone of both rail transport and their services.
Yes, with the heavy state government subsidies. It has more to do with the visions of the state governments and how much they would pay DB to realize these visions.

It seems funny that many Germans have no problems with supposedly spending small sums of money on those supposedly much more useful railway lines that do not even benefit too much people living in the areas that the rail tracks pass through.

I am sure that many environmentally conscious Germans, including the Greens, would NOT prefer autobahns and planes to dominate in long distance travels.

If Germans decided to turn all the federal states into independent nations tomorrow, they could abandon all the ICE trains and canceled all the high speed rail construction projects.

What a ridiculous nonsense.

The backbone of rail systems is the national long distance trunk routes, with regional services branching out from these trunk routes. DB is called, DB, not NRW, BW, Bayerische Bahn, etc.

http://www.deutschebahn.com/site/sha...rnleitbild.pdf

Last edited by aab7772003; October 16th, 2010 at 05:56 AM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2010, 04:45 AM   #612
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21250

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
I am sure that many environmentally conscious Germans, including the Greens, would NOT prefer autobahns and planes to dominate in long distance travels.
Conscious Germans who are not greenbrainwashed would favor massive investment in new autobahns as they are the mean of choice of travel of majority of intercity traffic where they are present.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2010, 05:55 AM   #613
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Conscious Germans who are not greenbrainwashed would favor massive investment in new autobahns as they are the mean of choice of travel of majority of intercity traffic where they are present.
It takes someone really conscious to tell what they like apart from facts. Many people HATE driving long distance and they would do as much as they can to avoid it.

Last edited by aab7772003; October 16th, 2010 at 06:34 AM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2010, 01:45 PM   #614
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21250

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
It takes someone really conscious to tell what they like apart from facts. Many people HATE driving long distance and they would do as much as they can to avoid it.
Sure they do, but autobahns are not a road version for high-speed rail lines. They are mostly used for medium-distance driving and intercity commuting.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2010, 07:35 PM   #615
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Sure they do, but autobahns are not a road version for high-speed rail lines. They are mostly used for medium-distance driving and intercity commuting.
This is a discussion on Stuttgart 21, not your soap box for your automobile propaganda.

Do NOT claim that you actually know that Cologne and Düsseldorf need a ten-lane autobahn between them.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2010, 10:15 PM   #616
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21250

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
This is a discussion on Stuttgart 21, not your soap box for your automobile propaganda.
Let's just be respectful. I'm not the one who brought highway comparisons here, Swisstralia mentioned and brought the issue up. Let's not mix the discussion of the other thread.

As long as you consider my arguments as "propaganda", it will hard to have any discussion. Still, it's nice to be more courteous on a forum that is NOT the local anti-car, kill the car, ban the car NGO wall post.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2010, 12:14 AM   #617
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Let's not mix the discussion of the other thread.
But you do that with your "car, car and more car" talk all the time in all the threads.

You have once again slipped in one of your trademark comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Conscious Germans who are not greenbrainwashed would favor massive investment in new autobahns as they are the mean of choice of travel of majority of intercity traffic where they are present.
Why don´t you just visit those car fetishist discussion boards and let those car fetishists have cyber sex with you instead?

By the way, this board has the highway/bridge section for people like you who even want to drive to the Moon.

Last edited by aab7772003; October 17th, 2010 at 05:41 AM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2010, 01:59 AM   #618
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21250

Back to topic

Does anyone one know what is the cost breakdown of Stuttgart 21 project (as for systems, land acquisition, construction and so)?
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2010, 05:43 AM   #619
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Does anyone one know what is the cost breakdown of Stuttgart 21 project (as for systems, land acquisition, construction and so)?
One of the key selling points of this project is to drastically reduce the land needed for railway infrastructures.

http://www.das-neue-herz-europas.de/...-GB&Print=true

Last edited by aab7772003; October 17th, 2010 at 02:24 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2010, 05:56 AM   #620
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

A refreshingly different take on Stuttgart 21:
http://www.sightofthenavigator.com/2...-stuttgart-21/

It is so much nicer than hearing nonsense from those small-minded people who think that DB is a government agency that should just focus on their local transit needs.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 07:23 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium