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Old October 25th, 2010, 08:49 PM   #641
venom6
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I searched videos about this project and i really like it. Just amazing!

Can someone tell me whats going on? As far as i know they are building it and a lot of people are against it. Is the reason the price of the project? They dont want so much money to waste on this or what?

Danke für die infos
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Old October 25th, 2010, 10:35 PM   #642
Baron Hirsch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by venom6 View Post
I searched videos about this project and i really like it. Just amazing!

Can someone tell me whats going on? As far as i know they are building it and a lot of people are against it. Is the reason the price of the project? They dont want so much money to waste on this or what?

Danke für die infos
The arguements are roughly -

a) the new concept is too expensive and there will be a lack of more important investments

b) the new station will be less efficient as a local transport hub, as there will be less tracks than in the present dead-end station

c) the new HSR connected to the line will not accommodate freight

d) those in power did not discuss the S21 plan with the people

e) it is better to live a slow life than run highspeed trains


None of these really seem to me a reason to go demonstrating for weeks on end in one of the biggest popular resistance movements the country has seen for years, beating even the uproar against the extension of running atomic power plants. i am also only following this from a far and am puzzled.
In other places where central stations have or are being replaced or torn down, such as Berlin, Vienna, Istanbul, people have argued for the importance the old train stations have had in history or for their aesthetic value. Only last week for the first time an architecture historian (not from stuttgart) for the first time elaborated Stuttgart Hauptbahnhof's place in architecture history to me. This, a city's attachments to its most important buildings, i could understand. Is it that in materialist Schwabenland people are afraid to argue based on their emotions and are thus resorting to discussing practicalities, such as how many local trains can pass their station per hour?
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Old October 26th, 2010, 10:11 AM   #643
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None of these really seem to me a reason to go demonstrating for weeks on end in one of the biggest popular resistance movements the country has seen for years, beating even the uproar against the extension of running atomic power plants. i am also only following this from a far and am puzzled.
A lot of modern protest movements are more about the protests themselves than about the cause. They take on a momentum of their own. People take part so they can later tell stories about having been there. It's a bit like a big rock concert. Great place to pick up girls too.
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Old October 26th, 2010, 02:27 PM   #644
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Thank you for the quick reply! As i saw on youtube videos the construction is in progress. The demonstrations will end in a few weeks, people cant force the leadership to stop the project as its in progress. Look in Hungary people were demonstrating since 2006 September for 4 years against the liar prime minister Gyurcsány. Did he resign? No.
People had to wait 4 years til next vote.

Our Metro 4 project in Budapest costs 1 million 785 thousand euros and nobody knows what will be the final price. They delay the end date every year. It was 2013 last year but now they mention 2015 when we will able to ride on it. It should cost a way less, but corruption and money is stolen out from this construction. Are people fed up? Yes.
We cant do anything, this is not a reason to make a demonstration.

I will keep an eye on "Stuttgart 21" as i like this project
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Old October 26th, 2010, 04:41 PM   #645
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Hi can anyone give more pics of Stuttgart Hbf and the layout/position on the map, especially with respect to how Stuttgart 21 will be positioned?

Thanks IA.
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Old October 29th, 2010, 01:39 PM   #646
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I found this article in German which breaks down some of the key differences between the official "S21" and the alternative "Kopfbahnhof21" concepts that are now being discussed in arbitration. In a refreshingly non-partisan way, the author states that both concepts are not as antagonistic as the government and the protesters describe them to be, but that there is room for compromise in there.
What I found most important: apparently in the arbitration, people are not discussing whether Stuttgart needs a Munich-bound HSR at all. They are now discussing whether the HSR can be more successfully integrated with an underground through station or an above ground terminus (or a combination of the two). Thank God they are no longer discussing whether the HSR should be custom-built for freight or whether environmentally righteous people should want to travel no further than Bietigheim-Bissingen.
And yes, for you fanatical lovers of the Swiss integrated schedule, that is mentioned too in the article, as it is from Switzerland.
http://www.nzz.ch/nachrichten/intern...1.8176483.html
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Old November 6th, 2010, 02:26 PM   #647
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The backbone of rail systems is the national long distance trunk routes, with regional services branching out from these trunk routes. DB is called, DB, not NRW, BW, Bayerische Bahn, etc.
*cough*

Technically, DB is just a holding. Which has about 500 subcompanies that are called e.g. "SüdostBayernBahn", "WestFrankenBahn", "DB Regio NRW" etc. for regional services. And these do act separate for the most part. Long-distance transport is completely separate under DB Fernverkehr.
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Old November 9th, 2010, 07:00 PM   #648
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*cough*

Technically, DB is just a holding. Which has about 500 subcompanies that are called e.g. "SüdostBayernBahn", "WestFrankenBahn", "DB Regio NRW" etc. for regional services. And these do act separate for the most part. Long-distance transport is completely separate under DB Fernverkehr.
The common people, especially those people committing violence and chaos under the influence of emotional ignorance, just think everything is simply DB.

I was talking about the actual network. These regional trains run services more or less from the big rail hubs that connect with the long distance services, the true backbone of the network.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 10th, 2010 at 09:31 PM.
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Old November 9th, 2010, 09:00 PM   #649
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So they are the backbone of the actual network in the sense that they feed a otherwise pointless long-distance network?
In terms of ridership, the regional services are far more important for obvious reasons, too. Regardless of the model applicated to pay for them.
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Old November 10th, 2010, 09:30 PM   #650
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So they are the backbone of the actual network in the sense that they feed a otherwise pointless long-distance network?
In terms of ridership, the regional services are far more important for obvious reasons, too. Regardless of the model applicated to pay for them.
No, the long-haul network is the backbone.
Please do not utter and repeat the nonsense that Hamburg - Berlin, Frankfurt - Munich, Cologne - Frankfurt, Stuttgart - Munich, Munich - Nürnberg, etc. routes depend regional traffic for survival.
The manic depressive obsession with the commuter rail network is utterly pointless.
Without the massive subsidies, oh the almighty and important commuter passengers would not pay for the true costs of their commuter rides.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 03:56 PM   #651
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No, the long-haul network is the backbone.
Please do not utter and repeat the nonsense that Hamburg - Berlin, Frankfurt - Munich, Cologne - Frankfurt, Stuttgart - Munich, Munich - Nürnberg, etc. routes depend regional traffic for survival.
The manic depressive obsession with the commuter rail network is utterly pointless.
Without the massive subsidies, oh the almighty and important commuter passengers would not pay for the true costs of their commuter rides.
By subsidizing regional transport, the government is essentially preventing new job centers that would spur elsewhere if employers started having difficulties to hire people because commutes cost so much and housing near their facilities is so expensive for employees to live there. In US, where such subsidization is far lower than in Europe, we have greater sprawl of job centers in any metro area. Just look at a random edge city with many office parks.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 08:44 PM   #652
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The manic depressive obsession with the commuter rail network is utterly pointless.
Without the massive subsidies, oh the almighty and important commuter passengers would not pay for the true costs of their commuter rides.
Well, if the regional railways wouldn't be subsidized, lots of people in fact wouldn't use it, causing probably even higher economic costs elsewhere - resulting in negative impacts on the performance of the whole economy (and ecology, for that matter). Think about work time lost in traffic jams, high costs to upgrade the road network, time lost in cargo logistics due to the jammed roads, etc.

The car doesn't pay for the true costs of theis rides, too. So, what exactly is your point - apart from a manic depressive obsession with opposion against a good offer of public transport?
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Old November 11th, 2010, 08:48 PM   #653
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By subsidizing regional transport, the government is essentially preventing new job centers that would spur elsewhere if employers started having difficulties to hire people because commutes cost so much and housing near their facilities is so expensive for employees to live there. In US, where such subsidization is far lower than in Europe, we have greater sprawl of job centers in any metro area. Just look at a random edge city with many office parks.
Which, even it would be true, isn't a bad thing. The sprawling leads to massive land use which in Western Europe isn't exactly the best thing as the population density is already quite high. And personally, I wouldn''t want to live in endless, boring Amican-styled suburbs, for that matter.
A simple sprawl doesn't automatically lead to new jobs as you suggest it would.
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Old November 11th, 2010, 09:35 PM   #654
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Quote:
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By subsidizing regional transport, the government is essentially preventing new job centers that would spur elsewhere if employers started having difficulties to hire people because commutes cost so much and housing near their facilities is so expensive for employees to live there. In US, where such subsidization is far lower than in Europe, we have greater sprawl of job centers in any metro area. Just look at a random edge city with many office parks.
It works in a bidirectional way. Actually most of the North American cities do not have a historic city center while European cities usually have one. In Europe workplaces were located in city centers so that transport infrastructures (both roads and public transport) were built there to make it easier to reach the workplace. Following it new employers started new businesses in the city center because it is the place of good transport insfrastructure (sometimes even large factories were built in narrow downtown streets), new shops opened here since it is the place that can be reached easily by customers, etc. But since there were travel destinations for lots of people, new insfrastructures were needed ... any the whole thing begun again and again.
Meanwhile in America the settlement structure was far less centralized and following it the infrastructure, too, became less centralized and new offices, shops and employers followed the traffic infrastructures making the settlement structure even more spread, etc.

Actually I mean it is the main reason why public transport in Europe was always much more popular than at the other side of the Atlantics because we in Europe do have such populized driving directions which rarely exist in America.

In Stuttgart, too, everyone want to reach the city center. It is the main travelling direction in and around the city. That's why the S-Bahn was built in the 70's. Long distance trains have significantly less passangers.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 08:12 PM   #655
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
By subsidizing regional transport, the government is essentially preventing new job centers that would spur elsewhere if employers started having difficulties to hire people because commutes cost so much and housing near their facilities is so expensive for employees to live there. In US, where such subsidization is far lower than in Europe, we have greater sprawl of job centers in any metro area. Just look at a random edge city with many office parks.
In France regional public transport is subsidized out of a payroll tax. It was the employers themselves that asked for this system, since PT allows them to recruit employees in a larger area.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 09:51 PM   #656
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Well, if the regional railways wouldn't be subsidized, lots of people in fact wouldn't use it, causing probably even higher economic costs elsewhere - resulting in negative impacts on the performance of the whole economy (and ecology, for that matter). Think about work time lost in traffic jams, high costs to upgrade the road network, time lost in cargo logistics due to the jammed roads, etc.

The car doesn't pay for the true costs of theis rides, too. So, what exactly is your point - apart from a manic depressive obsession with opposion against a good offer of public transport?
The point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Please do not utter and repeat the nonsense that Hamburg - Berlin, Frankfurt - Munich, Cologne - Frankfurt, Stuttgart - Munich, Munich - Nürnberg, etc. routes depend regional traffic for survival.
Good public transportation is not just the commuter rail alone.
Since these maniacs are getting so crazy about killing Stuttgart 21, they might just as well pop out more of those bloody eyeballs to kill the heavily subsidized local transportation.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 10:29 PM   #657
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Are employment centers outside of the central city in Europe are well served by mass transit in general?
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Old November 13th, 2010, 12:06 AM   #658
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Well, it depends on the local situation, I would say.
But big centres like e. g. a car plant are generally connected to the public transport network (railroad, tram, e. g.), yes.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 12:10 AM   #659
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The point:
Good public transportation is not just the commuter rail alone.
Yet: Good public transport is not the long-distance rail alone. :bash
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Old November 13th, 2010, 01:55 AM   #660
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Yet: Good public transport is not the long-distance rail alone. :bash
To the commuter-train-crazed you, everything evolves around commuter trains and services that stop at every freaking farm enroute. Unlike you who is possessed by the supreme/absolute infallibility of the subsidized-to-death commuter train services, I do not go around preaching that current commuter services should be terminated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Good public transportation is not just the commuter rail alone.
Since these maniacs are getting so crazy about killing Stuttgart 21, they might just as well pop out more of those bloody eyeballs to kill the heavily subsidized local transportation.
What makes those maniacs think that they deserve subsidized-to-death commuter train services if they think that the state of Baden Württemberg and the rest of Germany do not deserve high speed rail services that will maintain Germany´s global competitiveness? Germany is having both. Using their small-minded argument mostly based on cost the other way around, these small-minded people should instantly realize that they do NOT deserve subsidized-to-death commuter train services.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 14th, 2010 at 03:14 PM.
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