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Old November 13th, 2010, 05:28 AM   #661
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post

What makes those maniacs think that they deserve subsidized-to-death commuter train services when the state of Baden Württemberg and the rest of Germany do not deserve high speed rail services that will maintain Germany´s global competitiveness? Germany is having both. Using their small-minded argument mostly based on cost, these small-minded people do NOT deserve subsidized-to-death commuter train services .
Its the same depraved thinking that axed the transrapid to the Munich airport. Those beancounters have no vision....
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Old November 13th, 2010, 11:56 AM   #662
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Its the same depraved thinking that axed the transrapid to the Munich airport. Those beancounters have no vision....
No, the Transrapid is just the wrong technology for a short link between an airport and the city centre. The benefit/cost ratio was simply unfavourable.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 01:02 PM   #663
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Are employment centers outside of the central city in Europe are well served by mass transit in general?
That depends. Quite a few European cities have invested, or are investing in suburb to suburb mass transit. A few examples:
Amsterdam build the ring railroad and metro and the "Zuidtangent".
In Zürich the Glattalbahn, a light rail line serving a broad arc around the north of the city is about to open.
Paris has installed a few tangential tram lines, and there is the long term plan of the "Grand Huit". (Great eight).
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Old November 14th, 2010, 07:10 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
(...) maintain Germany´s global competitiveness?
If you're worried about Germanys global competitiveness, the money for Stuttgart 21 would be better invested in creating higher capacities for rail freight (except the HSL Wendlingen-Ulm, obviously).
There was an article in the Zeit a few months ago pointing out that building all the proposed HSLs would actually hurt Germanies competitiveness as the freight traffic urgently needs higher capacities which couldn't be created because all the funds would be deterined to HSR. The result: Even more cargo would land on the motorway and jamming up everything. By the way, investing there would also improve regional train services and therefore rail coverage of the whole country.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 10:59 PM   #665
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If you're worried about Germanys global competitiveness, the money for Stuttgart 21 would be better invested in creating higher capacities for rail freight (except the HSL Wendlingen-Ulm, obviously).
There was an article in the Zeit a few months ago pointing out that building all the proposed HSLs would actually hurt Germanies competitiveness as the freight traffic urgently needs higher capacities which couldn't be created because all the funds would be deterined to HSR. The result: Even more cargo would land on the motorway and jamming up everything. By the way, investing there would also improve regional train services and therefore rail coverage of the whole country.
I have heard of such nonsense, MANY TIMES.
You are out to preach about the supreme/absolute infallibility of the subsidized-to-death commuter train services, ONCE AGAIN. For people like you who has fetish with "regional traffic," S-Bahn is more than enough for travel between London and Paris. You probably experience multiple orgasms nonstop when you travel from Flensburg to Kufstein via S-Bahn.
As the high speed rail traffic is moved to the new HSR tracks, there will be more capacity on the old tracks for the freight traffic.
To enhance the mobility and accessibility of the whole country AND entire Europe, HSR is the way to go.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 15th, 2010 at 02:39 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 12:46 AM   #666
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Well, then the calculation is quite easy: Upgrating an existing line (by adding a third track or so9 is way cheaper than building a completely new HSL. And normally the paper war in beforehand is very little in comparision. The conclusion has to be that, given a fixed amoutn of funds, by upgrating you can create way more capacity on more lines faster than by building HSLs. And there's of course the even more obvious point, that that capacity might be needed on lines where a HSL wouldn't make sense (e. g. the Nuremberg-Passau line).
I'm waiting for your argument against that though I don't expect it to bee too convincing. Probably its going to be just another insult.
As lons as you don't bring up proper arguments and data, you're just another HSR fanboy which can't be taken too serious.

And, for the last time, I'm not against HSR a priori. But the investment has to make sense in terms of what you gain out of the invested money. Taxpayers money, to point out another time. It can't be in the interest of people to waste it for nothing.
The main advantage of the railway compared to other modes of public transport is that it can combine coverage of large areas with high speeds where necessary. By focussing the investments on the latter only, it will definitely weaken its position in competition. You can't and shouldn't design a HSR network in direct competition to air travel. Especially not in Germany where geographic factors and transport infrastucture favout another concept of HSR like the one applied in France or Spain. Its as easy as that.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 01:04 AM   #667
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The question is that no European country (namely: France, Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, UK) would have ever built any multibillion HSR line if local, commuter traffic always had the priority.

If you rewind and go back to Otto van Bismarck's time, I doubt any railway would have ever been constructed as I am sure there were more "pressing needs affecting the daily transportation demands of Prussian fellows". There will always be many "interesting" local mobility projects that will never get built anyway because money is limited. But if you focus only on "incremental" approaches, you will be forever stuck with substandard infrastructure.

It concerns not only rail transport: if German governments didn't have a vision, the amazing, impressive and (mostly) state-of-the-art (if overloaded) Autobahn system would have never be expanded to what it looks today. I'm totally sure someone could find "better use" to all the dozens of billions of DM used to built it in "improving local mobility", going back to "improving farm-to-market accessibility" in the 1950's.

So some projects must be done with a vision of the future. If some local commutes are affected, let'em drive instead.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 01:36 AM   #668
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Well, then the calculation is quite easy: Upgrating an existing line (by adding a third track or so9 is way cheaper than building a completely new HSL. And normally the paper war in beforehand is very little in comparision. The conclusion has to be that, given a fixed amoutn of funds, by upgrating you can create way more capacity on more lines faster than by building HSLs. And there's of course the even more obvious point, that that capacity might be needed on lines where a HSL wouldn't make sense (e. g. the Nuremberg-Passau line).
I'm waiting for your argument against that though I don't expect it to bee too convincing. Probably its going to be just another insult.
As lons as you don't bring up proper arguments and data, you're just another HSR fanboy which can't be taken too serious.

And, for the last time, I'm not against HSR a priori. But the investment has to make sense in terms of what you gain out of the invested money. Taxpayers money, to point out another time. It can't be in the interest of people to waste it for nothing.
The main advantage of the railway compared to other modes of public transport is that it can combine coverage of large areas with high speeds where necessary. By focussing the investments on the latter only, it will definitely weaken its position in competition. You can't and shouldn't design a HSR network in direct competition to air travel. Especially not in Germany where geographic factors and transport infrastucture favout another concept of HSR like the one applied in France or Spain. Its as easy as that.
Where are the data with your argument then? Your rubbish arguments equate to those who detest Eurostar/Chunnel by claiming that a lot more rail upgrades need to be done from London to Wales first. By the way, how much of those grass-root protesters´ money is actually "wasted" on Stuttgart 21? These people cannot possibly contribute much more money to this project than the EU, DB, the German Federal Goverment, Daimler, Porsche, SAP, Robert Bosch, Hugo Boss, Carl Zeiss, etc. do. These rioters pay nothing in taxes in comparison with the taxes the rich people and flagship firms pay in the top-heavy German tax system. These losers probably pay negative tax on the other hand; they are very likely social welfare benefits recipients in another word.

Lufthansa apparently does not agree with you as Lufthansa has been experimenting all sorts of air-rail service concepts with DB for ages. I would rather listen to legitimate global firms like Lufthansa and DB than you on a soap box. HSR is about city center to city center transport, something airlines can never offer. Rail is also an important alternative to automobiles.

Of course, those people will find anything seemingly plausible to write in order to kill Stuttgart 21 are too worked up to remember that highways in Germany are not tolled. The fact that many trucks traveling across Europe will try to spend as much time on the German autobahns as possible also contributes to highway congestion in Germany.

What in your retarded mind makes you think cities like Stuttgart, Paris, Strasbourg, Nürnberg, Munich, Vienna etc. only deserve the same level of transportation infrastructure a small city such as Passau have? Why travel time between the city centers of the larger and important cities should not be reduced drastically when people travel between these cities demand the shortest possible travel time and there are so many of them? Stuttgart 21 is a part of the trans-European corridor that will connect some of the most important cities in Europe. By the way, so much money has been invested to improve regional rail traffic within Germany and such investments will continue.

Germany is not an island, like the British Isles and Taiwan. The way these lunatics view Stuttgart 21 as it were the Taiwanese HSR, a lonely stretch of high speed rail tracks that does not connect anywhere else in the world. The Stuttgart 21 project makes sense for the pan European passenger and German national traffic, but then all you see is a region when you are experiencing nonstop hallucinations on S-Bahn carriages.

People who compare Passau with Stuttgart should simply be ignored. It is ironic that some people who come up with those pathetically sad and invalid arguments think they have the intellectual authority to comment on somebody else´s arguments.

HSR is needed to connect major cities of Germany since they are scattered throughout the country. In fact, geographic factors and transport infrastructure together favor a more seamless form of HSR in Germany. I am an "HSR fanboy" in the sense that I have the good sense to realize that the state of Baden Württemberg, not much smaller than Switzerland, only represents 10% of the German territories, and there are indeed several major cities in different corners of Germany. It is ridiculous that rail travel between Frankfurt and Munich, two of the world´s most important cities, still lasts way more than two hours these days.

Actually, forcing the Swiss concept onto Germany is plain wrong when the systems of France, Spain, UK, Japan, China, California, US Northeast, etc. are not the cones of the oh-so-perfect-and-universal Swiss system.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 15th, 2010 at 08:20 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 07:36 AM   #669
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Actually, forcing the Swiss concept onto Germany is plain wrong when the systems of France, Spain, UK, Japan, China, California, US Northeast, etc. are not the cones of the oh-so-perfect-and-universal Swiss system.
The "Swiss Concept" (which is not Swiss btw.) is not forced on anybody. It is however surprisingly popular, and even the French railways are adopting it. That does say something about it's value.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 07:40 AM   #670
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The question is that no European country (namely: France, Spain, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium, UK) would have ever built any multibillion HSR line if local, commuter traffic always had the priority.
However, if more attention would have been given to Local needs the Netherlands would now not be stuck with a largely unused very expensive HSL, and Belgium wouldn't have dumped a ton of money in to a Brussels - Liége HSL that makes it possible to have trip times more or less similar to those available on the conventional line in the 80ies...

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So some projects must be done with a vision of the future. If some local commutes are affected, let'em drive instead.
A project that increases the populations reliance on the private motor car can hardly be called visionary.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 11:00 AM   #671
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However, if more attention would have been given to Local needs the Netherlands would now not be stuck with a largely unused very expensive HSL, and Belgium wouldn't have dumped a ton of money in to a Brussels - Liége HSL that makes it possible to have trip times more or less similar to those available on the conventional line in the 80ies...
I refuse to go over - again - the argument that connecting in Liège is worse than it was before HSL-3. Travel times FROM Brussels TO Liège have been drastically reduced, and that is what matters.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 12:32 PM   #672
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The "Swiss Concept" (which is not Swiss btw.) is not forced on anybody. It is however surprisingly popular, and even the French railways are adopting it. That does say something about it's value.
The fact is that the German system is much better. I have mentioned the reasons in my previous posts already. Meanwhile, it is unfortunate that the Dutch Railways has made such a horrible mess with their pricing system. Many Germans in Germany try force the "Swiss Concept" on Germany with everything they can think of, including bloody eyeballs. I am so sure that the TGV is adopting the "Swiss Concept" onto its Paris - Marseilles services, NOT!

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Old November 15th, 2010, 01:22 PM   #673
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The fact is that the German system is much better. I have mentioned the reasons in my previous posts already. Meanwhile, it is unfortunate that the Dutch Railways has made such a horrible mess with their pricing system.
What mess has NS made?
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Old November 15th, 2010, 02:24 PM   #674
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What mess has NS made?
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=953870
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Old November 15th, 2010, 10:59 PM   #675
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Apparently, you're not even able to read properly someone elses posts. Nevertheless:

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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Where are the data with your argument then?
Well, I don't have any data for the last post. But its not that such an argumentation would be too complex. You don't need data to see it, but have to shut your eyes if you don't want to see it.
By the way, the (shortened) version of the article of the Zeit can be read here: http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/untern...ng-stuttgart21
In doubt, I honestly tend to believe them more than I would believe you.

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By the way, how much of those grass-root protesters´ money is actually "wasted" on Stuttgart 21? These people cannot possibly contribute much more money to this project than the EU, DB, the German Federal Goverment, Daimler, Porsche, SAP, Robert Bosch, Hugo Boss, Carl Zeiss, etc. do. These rioters pay nothing in taxes in comparison with the taxes the rich people and flagship firms pay in the top-heavy German tax system. These losers probably pay negative tax on the other hand; they are very likely social welfare benefits recipients in another word.
Appartently, most of them are middle class, upper middle class and upper class. Typical residents of Stuttgart. And typically those people which pay more taxes than they receive from the government.
I wouldn't believe more to big companies than to the ordinary people as they certainly are biased, too. And paying most money doesn't automatically give your opinion more value (and doesn't automatically render it true at all). Including the most opinions possible into the process of finding a strategy to implement ensures a widely accepted compromise. These are basic principles of a democracy.
By the way the governments plan to invest approx. 2.2 bln Euros into the project (and will certainly pay much more as the project is doomed to become more expensive). That's enough money that the tax payer is legitimated to ask if it makes sense. And it's a lot of money that will be missed in other rail infrastructure projects.

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Lufthansa apparently does not agree with you as Lufthansa has been experimenting all sorts of air-rail service concepts with DB for ages.
Well, the failure of these concepts can have many many reasons. To be honest, I actually can't see what would be the argument here.

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I would rather listen to legitimate global firms like Lufthansa and DB than you on a soap box.
If you want to, feel free to do so.

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HSR is about city center to city center transport, something airlines can never offer. Rail is also an important alternative to automobiles.
Absolutely true. And by integrating HSR into conventional rail services the best possible, you can create even more utility for more users and attract more customers - mostly those living not in city centres. And (basic principle of economy) by creating higher utility you can create higher value of your product. So as a rail operator you would be stupid if you wouldn't do so.

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Of course, those people will find anything seemingly plausible to write in order to kill Stuttgart 21 are too worked up to remember that highways in Germany are not tolled. The fact that many trucks traveling across Europe will try to spend as much time on the German autobahns as possible also contributes to highway congestion in Germany.
Where's the argument there? What has the first part to do with the second?

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What in your retarded mind makes you think cities like Stuttgart, Paris, Strasbourg, Nürnberg, Munich, Vienna etc. only deserve the same level of transportation infrastructure a small city such as Passau have?
What in your retarded mind makes you believe I would think so? I never said that.

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Why travel time between the city centers of the larger and important cities should not be reduced drastically when people travel between these cities demand the shortest possible travel time and there are so many of them?
Good point. But, as I said, the government typically has only a limited budget to invest which isn't enough for all "urgently needed" projects. So it should be invested where it makes the most sense and creates the most utility. That might even be noth HSR and might no be between the largest cities.

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Stuttgart 21 is a part of the trans-European corridor that will connect some of the most important cities in Europe. By the way, so much money has been invested to improve regional rail traffic within Germany and such investments will continue.
True. But see above. 2.2 bln Euros is hell lot of money, even for Germany. You can ask if it wouldn't create higher utility and foster the economics' competibility better elsewhere.

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(..) but then all you see is a region when you are experiencing nonstop hallucinations on S-Bahn carriages.
Where did you get that impression? All I said is that building 300km/h HSLs everywhere in Germany is a waste of money when investing less into the existing tracks somewhere might result in almost equal results. And I certainly never said that HSR is unneccessary.

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People who compare Passau with Stuttgart should simply be ignored.
Which I never did. Again, I'm getting serious doubts about your reading skills.

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It is ironic that some people who come up with those pathetically sad and invalid arguments think they have the intellectual authority to comment on somebody else´s arguments.
Which I didn't. And, if I were you, insulting other users directly, I certainly wouldn't try to do so, too.

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HSR is needed to connect major cities of Germany since they are scattered throughout the country.
Yes. No doubt in there. But if you dream about 300km/h lines between all those cities, you have to ask how we should pay for them and whether somewhere going a step down wouldn't be enough.
But - and I pooint it out for you one last time - that does NOT mean that I think that all 300km/h lines are useless. Of course they make sense on the most important parts of the network.

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In fact, geographic factors and transport infrastructure together favor a more seamless form of HSR in Germany.
Wrong. In countries like Spain, Italy and Japan, and even to some point France, you can build one or two lines and connect basically all the very important cities of a country. You can't do that in Germany. So if you want to improve service quality for all those cities, you have to find another feasible solution. Upgrating existing tracks to allow higher speeds or improving connections between the trains might be a good alternative.
In that sense, I would rather compare Germany to China. However, China is basically building a rail network from scratch and they would be stupid to do it the same way we did it 140 years ago. We have to deal with what we've got as we don't have enough money to replace all of it.

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I am an "HSR fanboy" in the sense that I have the good sense to realize that the state of Baden Württemberg, not much smaller than Switzerland, only represents 10% of the German territories, and there are indeed several major cities in different corners of Germany. It is ridiculous that rail travel between Frankfurt and Munich, two of the world´s most important cities, still lasts way more than two hours these days.
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.

Quote:
Actually, forcing the Swiss concept onto Germany is plain wrong when the systems of France, Spain, UK, Japan, China, California, US Northeast, etc. are not the cones of the oh-so-perfect-and-universal Swiss system.
See above. The preconditions are different.
In the UK you don't have a dominant single rail operator anymore. Coordination of the different regional networks and the different inter city operators is out of question. And of course, the network is quite focussed on London. And even in that city, there is no Hauptbahnhof which could work as a hub. Coordinating timetables between the East Coast Main Line and the West Coast Main Line doesn't make too much sense as you can't easily switch trains between King's Cross and Euston. The same is true for Paris by the way.
In Spain there isn't much to coordinate Given the distances, the few lines, the very low train frequency and that there basically is only one hub for inter city services (Madrid), it doesn't make much sense at all.
Japan is basically operating so high frequencies on most lines that wide coordination isn't necessary - basically a giant S-Bahn. There are lots of operators, I don't know how cooperation works there.
The US cases you can't compare, too. Low train frequencies, different operators, probably no need to coordination because most people use either long-distance or commuter trains, but rarely both for the same journey, if I'm not wrong. And in both cases, we're basically talking about only one main line with several branches and commuter networks around. There are no cross-connecting inter city lines where coordination makes most sense.
China is building from scratch. They can build their network according to their wishes, they don't have to deal with an given infrastructure to optimize it.
Well, and France is actually adopting the Dutch/Swiss model where it is possible (regional networks and connections with inter cities as far as I know). By building several TGV stations in the middle of nowhere they now of course can't integrate these services into the rest of SNCFs offer. Not theo best choice, in my opinion. On the contrary DB has the opportunity to offer the best connections possible between their HSR services and their conventional rail services. And they should use that the best possible.

Apparently, although admiring Stuttgart 21, you didn't read that one of the main points of the project (operational-wise) is the implementation ot a "Swiss concept" as you like to call it. The future timetables for the regional services apparently are designed to optimize connections between the trains.
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Last edited by thun; November 15th, 2010 at 11:07 PM.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 12:11 AM   #676
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Lufthansa AiRail is a failure?



http://www.lufthansa.com/us/en/AIRai...flying#ancAbT8

The point is that Lufthansa has finally established a successful AiRail service and the service has been in operation for more than 10 years. The successful AiRail model is the fruit of multi-decade experimentations, so successful to the extant that even Air Berlin/TUI is a participation of the scheme.

Japan, France, Spain only have "a few" HSR lines? Look at the map again, dickhead

A network below would be similar to the current starburst TGV network of France centering on Paris in terms of mileage:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post

...

Frankfurt - Munich via Nürnberg
Frankfurt - Munich via Stuttgart
Frankfurt - Berlin via Hannover
Berlin - Hamburg
Frankfurt -Hamburg via Hannover
Cologne - Hamburg via Hannover
Frankfurt - Cologne

...
The above are the "most important" parts of the 300-km/h network. The German network is not the much different from the Swiss network, what a big fat lie! Look at the network above, again. The core of the Swiss network is really just the Zurich - Lucrene - Bern - Lausanne - Geneva and Bern - Basel trunk lines. US Northeast Corridor and the future California HSR are low frequency?

When people have too much fetish with S-Bahn trains, they end up compressing geography of Germany and claiming Germany is littered with high speed lines when actually only Berlin - Hamburg, Berlin - Hannover, Munich - Nürnberg, Frankfurt - Cologne, Mannheim - Stuttgart HSR lines exist. We live in a democracy after all, so people can exercise their freedom to shut their eyes and experience multiple orgasms on their beloved S-Bahn trains.

As I have been saying along, DB has been implementing systematic timetable forever. Germany is adding new tracks instead of replacing tracks. I do not see the old Colonge - Bonn - Koblenz - Frankfurt and Munich - Regensburg - Nürnberg lines being dismantled. Stuttgart 21 is the German railway model par excellence; ICE trains stop in the middle of the city with direct access to regional train and S-Bahn train connections. Going over budget is actually the norm of large scale infrastructure projects; all the projects around the world we have been reading about these days mostly come with over-budget issues.

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Originally Posted by thun View Post
... And there's of course the even more obvious point, that that capacity might be needed on lines where a HSL wouldn't make sense (e. g. the Nuremberg-Passau line).
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post

...

Which I never did. Again, I'm getting serious doubts about your reading skills.
...
Worry about your writing skills before stressing over my reading skills


I do not give those "common people" too much credit because they are just as selfish as the big firms are; they furthermore have no visions. I have yet to see those prosperous upper middle class people in protest on the streets; the guy loosing his eye balls just looks like an alcoholic and unwashed homeless guy.

Social welfare recipients, go protest against Stuttgart 21, A380, Hamburg Elbe Philharmonic Hall, Ariane launch rocket, etc. It sure feels better than standing in the bread lines of the local social welfare offices!

Last edited by aab7772003; November 16th, 2010 at 01:49 AM.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 12:16 AM   #677
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Who said that? The prior experiments certainly were rather short-living. Didn't you refer to them? If not, what's the point of your argument ("for ages")?
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Old November 16th, 2010, 12:34 AM   #678
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Quote:
In Spain there isn't much to coordinate Given the distances, the few lines, the very low train frequency and that there basically is only one hub for inter city services (Madrid), it doesn't make much sense at all.
There are some services that should be coordinated even there.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 01:07 AM   #679
thun
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True. A handful. Like every proper Interrrailer I sat in Bobadilla for quite a long time, too. However, the network isn't too complex, so the important connections indeed are very few.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
The point is that Lufthansa has finally established a successful AirRail service and the service has been in operation for more than 10 years.
Then you formulated your argument misleading. The Airrail is successful, due to the fact that it allows proper connections to the Lufthansa air services finally. The earlier attempts however weren't as successful, imo mainly because the connection between plane and train didn't work as good. By the way, I'm absolutely in favour of the Airrail system as it is much smarter than short-haul planes between Frankfurt and Cologne.

Quote:
Japan, France, Spain only have "a few" HSR lines? Look at the map again, dickhead
I didn't say they have a few lines, I said that by a few lines (in numbers, not in length) you can connect all mayor cities, dumbass (I suppose insulting you will give credibility to my argument as you try to do so, too). Connecting the mayor German cities you need a more complicated network with optimized hubs.
By the way, the network you suggested already more or less exists as HSR (Neubau- und Ausbaustrecken). There aren't too many gaps left for which wouldn't at least exist plans. If everything planned is going to be buildt some day, I wouldn't expect too many German HSLs to follow.

Quote:
The German network is not the much different from the Swiss network, what a big fat lie! Look at the network above. The core of the Swiss network is really just the Zurich - Lucrene - Bern - Lausanne - Geneva and Bern - Basel trunk lines.
Well, given the fact that there is no such thing as a "Zurich-Lucerne-Bern" line and you left out the lines to Chur, St. Gallen and both the Gotthard and the Lötschberg-Simplon lines, it gives the impression that you don't know the Swiss situation very well at all.
Both Germany and Switzerland have a rather dense network with several parallel main lines and adding regional lines. However, the most important fact is the lack of a "superhub" to which the whole network would be concentrated like it is London, Paris or Madrid. If you don't have a superhub but several equally important hubs, of course the share of travellers is different and you have to plan your services differently. In that sense, Germany and Switzerland are similar, yes.
Another result of that is that in the case of a network like the German or Swiss ones, passengers spread more across the whole net. Result: Lower passenger numbers on the individual lines (which makes it harder to justify HSLs to be buildt, whereas in France, the UK or Spain traveller numbers are concentrated on a few main lines to the superhub (e. g. Paris-Lyon which always carried a large share of the nations' North-South traffic, the East respectively West Coast Main Line or Barcelona - Madrid).

Quote:
Germany is adding new tracks instead of replacing tracks. I do not see the old Colonge - Bonn - Koblenz - Frankfurt and Munich - Regensburg - Nürnberg lines being dismantled.
Yet that doesn't guarantee that the stretches where a HSL is added to the existing line are the stretches where it would make most sense in terms of rising capacity.
E. g. (a theoretical case!) freight volume between the Ruhr (industry!) and Bremen (port!) could be so high that upgrating the line would be inevitable. However, building a HSL and thus creating higher capacity on the old line still could be a waste of money as the passenger volume and/or the gained time wouldn't justify it. According to your point of view, the line would be jammed inevitable as it wouldn't be justifiable to upgrate the old line. You can see the problem, can't you?
Building a HSL where it makes sense doesn't automatically guarantee that you solve the most important bottlenecks of your network.

Quote:
I do not give those "common people" too much credit because they are just as selfish as the big firms are; they furthermore have no visions. I have yet to see those prosperous upper middle class people in protest on the streets; the guy loosing his eye balls just looks like an alcoholic and unwashed homeless guy.
So you would believe a single selfish company more than the opinion of quite a lot of people (namely those directly affected!) and their aggregated point of view? Rather stupid of you, in my opinion.
It's not wrong to be agains someone's vision if it should affect you negatively. Living in a free country, one has to learn to accept that.
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Last edited by thun; November 16th, 2010 at 01:14 AM.
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Old November 16th, 2010, 01:25 AM   #680
aab7772003
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More rubbish from the retarded...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post

Then you formulated your argument misleading.
Unlike someone who fabricates things to glorify "regional" traffic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
Connecting the mayor German cities you need a more complicated network with optimized hubs.
...
Of course, for a retarded, what listed below is complicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post

...

Frankfurt - Munich via Nürnberg
Frankfurt - Munich via Stuttgart
Frankfurt - Berlin via Hannover
Berlin - Hamburg
Frankfurt -Hamburg via Hannover
Cologne - Hamburg via Hannover
Frankfurt - Cologne

...
More of those dumbass big fat lies:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger.
...
There is probably more rail ridership in the state of Baden Württemberg alone than the entire Switzerland.

Of course, a dumbass does not know that how his lies can be so easily exposed:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
I didn't say they have a few lines, I said that by a few lines (in numbers, not in length) you can connect all mayor cities, dumbass...
Realities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Spain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post

Well, given the fact that there is no such thing as a "Zurich-Lucerne-Bern" line and you left out the lines to Chur, St. Gallen and both the Gotthard and the Lötschberg-Simplon lines, it gives the impression that you don't know the Swiss situation very well at all.
Both Germany and Switzerland have a rather dense network with several parallel main lines and adding regional lines. However, the most important fact is the lack of a "superhub" to which the whole network would be concentrated like it is London, Paris or Madrid. If you don't have a superhub but several equally important hubs, of course the share of travellers is different and you have to plan your services differently. In that sense, Germany and Switzerland are similar, yes.
Another result of that is that in the case of a network like the German or Swiss ones, passengers spread more across the whole net. Result: Lower passenger numbers on the individual lines (which makes it harder to justify HSLs to be buildt, whereas in France, the UK or Spain traveller numbers are concentrated on a few main lines to the superhub (e. g. Paris-Lyon which always carried a large share of the nations' North-South traffic, the East respectively West Coast Main Line or Barcelona - Madrid).

For people who overestimate the importance of Passau and overlook the fact that Frankfurt is also a railway superhub, of course St. Gallen and co. look like sexy sprawling metropolis to them. There are actually two major stations in Frankfurt, Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof and Frankfurt Flughafen. Studying the service density map of DB carefully will reveal that Düsseldorf, Cologne, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Nürnberg and Munich receive the absolute majority of rail services in Germany and Frankfurt is clearly the hub of all these services. Berlin is like a highly inflated Bonn and Frankfurt is on a par with Paris and London is terms of highway, airport and railway infrastructure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
...
The core of the Swiss network is really just the Zurich - Lucrene - Bern - Lausanne - Geneva and Bern - Basel trunk lines.
...
It is naturally difficult for some dumbass who struggles with reading, writing and geography to understand that I actually refer to the popular journeys passengers take and know that dedicated Frankfurt - Munich via Nürnberg and Frankfurt - Munich via Stuttgart HSR tracks built as one single infrastructure project do not exist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post

Yet that doesn't guarantee that the stretches where a HSL is added to the existing line are the stretches where it would make most sense in terms of rising capacity.
E. g. (a theoretical case!) freight volume between the Ruhr (industry!) and Bremen (port!) could be so high that upgrating the line would be inevitable. However, building a HSL and thus creating higher capacity on the old line still could be a waste of money as the passenger volume and/or the gained time wouldn't justify it. According to your point of view, the line would be jammed inevitable as it wouldn't be justifiable to upgrate the old line. You can see the problem, can't you?
Building a HSL where it makes sense doesn't automatically guarantee that you solve the most important bottlenecks of your network.

If the governments of North Rhine Westphalia and Lower Saxony care about these bottlenecks enough, they should work with DB and the federal government to come up with new projects. Meanwhile, the losers can also loose a few more of those bloody eyeballs in direct support of these projects. Yes, there is enough "industry" in the Ruhr Valley alright these days, in the form of turning empty industrial facilities into the European Capital of Culture 2010 venues and Love Parade ground.

One single evil corporation vs. the people is such a tired old trick. In reality, there are many companies involved in Stuttgart 21 and the NIMBYs are the struggling minorities at the bottom of the society. What is happening in Stuttgart is not democracy, it is rather civil disobedience master-mined by a political party with a self-serving desire to dominate national politics. Of course, the tired old trick is very convenient to employ to further the party´s political ambitions. Words from the middle-aged, bespectacled and possibly retired German engineers alone cannot possibly make people go crazy and chain themselves onto trees. I am waiting to see a few more of those "typical Stuttgarters" popping their bloody eye balls out and I am taking my time to wait for the next outbreaks of civil disobedience.

Those global guerrilla protesters always look for something new to protest against and stop the constructions for the heck of it every decade. At this age and date, they have found the railways as the new target:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1258053

Last edited by aab7772003; November 17th, 2010 at 12:46 AM.
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