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Old November 17th, 2010, 01:37 PM   #701
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Baden Württemberg is NOTHING like Switzerland, in terms of railways, in many aspects. For instance, Baden Württemberg has no soaring Alpine peaks and probably millions of tourists taking those long distance scenic train rides.
Scenic trains are even slower than regular trains, so don't "produce" many pkm.

Anyway most people I see on trains are clearly not foreign tourist.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 01:44 PM   #702
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Baden Württemberg is NOTHING like Switzerland, in terms of railways, in many aspects. For instance, Baden Württemberg has no soaring Alpine peaks and probably millions of tourists taking those long distance scenic train rides.
Well, you claimed that Baden Würrtemberg had more railway usage than Switzerland. The sources I gave you clearly point to the opposite. Who is making up facts here?
While tourisme certainly has an impact on rail usage in Switzerland it's importance should not be overestimated. The bulk of train trips in Switzerland happen on the Geneva - Bern - Zürich - st-Gallen axis, in the hart of "working Switzerland", not in the mountains.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 01:56 PM   #703
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In fact, it requires many lines to to connect about two thousand kilometers of Japan from north to south. Not everyone goes to Tokyo.
Not everyon goes to Frankfurt or Paris either...
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Old November 17th, 2010, 02:04 PM   #704
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It would be interesting to compare the actual passenger numbers instead of passenger kilometers in Baden Württemberg and Switzerland, with tourist on railway joyrides excluded.
It's not that hard. Most of the "railway joyrides" happen on other railways than the SBB. SBB itself already transports almost a million passengers per day, good for almost 16 billion Pkm.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 02:21 PM   #705
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Well, you claimed that Baden Würrtemberg had more railway usage than Switzerland. The sources I gave you clearly point to the opposite. Who is making up facts here?
While tourisme certainly has an impact on rail usage in Switzerland it's importance should not be overestimated. The bulk of train trips in Switzerland happen on the Geneva - Bern - Zürich - st-Gallen axis, in the hart of "working Switzerland", not in the mountains.
I clearly separate facts from personal intuitions and estimates:
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There is probably more rail ridership in the state of Baden Württemberg alone than the entire Switzerland.
If I were making up facts, I would instead write "There is definitely more rail ridership in the state of Baden Württemberg alone than the entire Switzerland.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 17th, 2010 at 10:22 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 02:25 PM   #706
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Not everyon goes to Frankfurt or Paris either...
Who says a railway superhub is planet Earth?


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Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...

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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
...
There are actually two major stations in Frankfurt, Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof and Frankfurt Flughafen. Studying the service density map of DB carefully will reveal that Düsseldorf, Cologne, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Nürnberg and Munich receive the absolute majority of rail services in Germany and Frankfurt is clearly the hub of all these services.
...
Frankfurt is on a par with Paris and London is terms of highway, airport and railway infrastructure.
...

Last edited by aab7772003; November 17th, 2010 at 02:33 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 02:31 PM   #707
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I clearly separate facts from personal intuitions and estimates:
Sure. But if your personal intuitions and estimates are so of the mark it does weaken your argument.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 02:34 PM   #708
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Old November 17th, 2010, 02:35 PM   #709
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Sure. But if your personal intuitions and estimates are so of the mark it does weaken your argument.
Not when I clearly separate the facts from my estimates.

I do not lie, but someone else lies his way to glorify his visions:

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Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...
Someone else cannot argue but simply lies because he does not like what he sees. He also lies that the railway superhubs do not exist in Germany.

It seems that you actually value lying in arguments.

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...
The bulk of train trips in Switzerland happen on the Geneva - Bern - Zürich - st-Gallen axis, in the hart of "working Switzerland", not in the mountains.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
...
There are actually two major stations in Frankfurt, Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof and Frankfurt Flughafen. Studying the service density map of DB carefully will reveal that Düsseldorf, Cologne, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Nürnberg and Munich receive the absolute majority of rail services in Germany and Frankfurt is clearly the hub of all these services. Berlin is like a highly inflated Bonn and Frankfurt is on a par with Paris and London is terms of highway, airport and railway infrastructure.
...

Last edited by aab7772003; November 17th, 2010 at 02:48 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 02:41 PM   #710
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Not when I clearly separate them facts from my estimates.
Well, we can keep on discussing semantics, but that is in my opinion pointless.

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I do not lie, but someone else lies his way to glorify his visions:

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In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
Actually "thun" is right. Germany _is_ more like Switzerland than like France. In France a clear distinction exists between "Ile de France" and "the rest of France", with a clearly different transportation policy applied to both parts. Germany is, and has always been, a country with multiple centres. I wouldn't call Germany a larger version of Switzerland howver, more like "several Switzerlands stitched together".
Germans identify with their region a lot. Every Bavarian I know is Bavarian first, and German second. The priority for the Bavarians is a transportation system that works for Bavaria, not getting to Berlin faster.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 02:51 PM   #711
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Actually "thun" is right. Germany _is_ more like Switzerland than like France. In France a clear distinction exists between "Ile de France" and "the rest of France", with a clearly different transportation policy applied to both parts. Germany is, and has always been, a country with multiple centres. I wouldn't call Germany a larger version of Switzerland howver, more like "several Switzerlands stitched together".
Germans identify with their region a lot. Every Bavarian I know is Bavarian first, and German second. The priority for the Bavarians is a transportation system that works for Bavaria, not getting to Berlin faster.
Actually, Europeans, except the French, identify with their regions a lot. There are actually Flanders and Wallonians instead of Belgians. All the "regional" transportation initiatives in Germany, including those in Bavaria, keep "national" transportation policies in mind. The cantons in Switzerland are akin to "landkreise" in Germany, only in terms of geographic size. Actually, political systems work rather differently in Switzerland and Germany. The "landkreise" and the important multiple metropolitan centers scattered throughout Germany are not equal in status/power. Neither are all the German federal states equal. A train trip from Frankfurt to Munich would probably take five or six hours if all the "landkreise" had absurdly equal say in the German transportation policy!

One of the many reasons why housing and general cost of living cost much more in big cities even in Germany is the superb transportation connections these cities offer. Are those people living in tiny villages willing to pay a lot more for the privilege of being able to go anywhere in Europe and the rest of world often with no transfers and detours? People living in farming communities in Germany and many parts of Europe should understand their states already heavily subsidize them for living in the small towns and farms. It is simply absurd for a farm to demand the same or identical level of transportation facilities the capital and first-tier cities enjoy when many small shops in the capital and first-tier cities make a lot more money than the farm can.

I am against a purely capitalistic society. On the other hand, it is simply too much for the "common people" to expect ever better access to the rest of the world for less now and even less later. If Germans living in different federal states do not want to cross subsidize national transportation projects, they should be ready to pay "out-of-state" transportation surcharges when they travel in other states. This is how things worked in medieval Europe. Do not give me the lame duck excuse of Swiss people are so willing to pay more for their transportation because of their "higher" standard of living. No, they do not; they wish that the cost of transportation in Switzerland would be identical to Germany´s. As you keep raving about the universally virtuous Swiss transportation system, also take note that actually the Germans are selling trains, offering consultation on transportation policies and operating transportation systems in other countries.

Last but not the least, if you think Switzerland is so perfect, just move there to make more money to enjoy the "higher" standard of living and experience the utterly clock-work like, Utopian transportation system everyday.

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Well, we can keep on discussing semantics, but that is in my opinion pointless.
...
It is indeed pointless because everybody believes their vision is the one and only, like someone believes that governments should adopt "build it, operators will come" strategy while someone else believes that the German government betrays its people and bankrupts the country because it does not adopt the oh-my-God-so-perfect Swiss model in its entirety.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 18th, 2010 at 05:30 PM.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 04:12 PM   #712
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In the 1983 timetable the fastest train on the Line was the IC "Saphir", which went from Köln to Brussel. It needed 1h03 for the Liège - Brussel - Zuid part, with a stop in Brussel Noord and Centraal, but no stop in Leuven.
The current fastest domestic trains is IC-O, which has the same stopping pattern, but which goes via the new line needs 56 minutes. A gain of 7 minutes.
The gains for domestic services were secondary targets. The prime reason why HSL 2 was built are accelerated international services. And Thalys and ICE services take only 43 and 47 min respectively between Bruxelles and Liège. Which is more than 25% less than the reference from the 1980s. Taken into account that HSL 2 covers just 2/3 of the total distance between aforementioned cities the times gains are reasonable.

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I don't call that very impressive, and ask myself if this time gain could have been achieved at less cost, by upgrading the existing line.
Upgrading existing railway lines for higher speeds isn't really cheaper. Once you consider the reduced capacity it implies by even more disharmonious traffic it comes at staggering cost.

The high speed line on the other hand widens capacity not only by two additional tracks but also harmonised traffic flow. It strikes two birds with one stone.

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The Thalys services are faster, but they are not targeted at domestic trips, and can't be used by commuters, and the introduction of the high speed trains meant that many places lost their direct connection with Germany. In 1983 Köln - Oostende was 3h25. Now it's 3h33. In fact, almost all trips between random origin - destination pairs within Belgium, and from Belgium to neighboring countries have increased. And that after spending billions in taxpayer money. Am I wrong if wondering whether that was money wisely spent?
You are wrong with the assumption that trips take more time. Oostende is a special case. it has lost the importance of being a gateway to Britain since then. That's why there are no services from Köln to Oostende any more. Still, travel time hasn't suffered much.
Elsewhere is has improved. Trips from anywhere in Belgium to Paris and southern France have been reduced by probably 50% or more. Travel time reduction have also been achieved from Bruxelles and Antwerpen to Rotterdam and Amsterdam and for almost any trip from Belgium to Germany.

Not to mention that the whole UK is much closer to Europe and Belgium in particular. If you can't spot the improvements you must be rather blind.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 05:41 PM   #713
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You are wrong with the assumption that trips take more time. Oostende is a special case.
It's not just about Oostende. It's "everywhere to the west of Brussel". That's a sizable part of the country.

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Elsewhere is has improved. Trips from anywhere in Belgium to Paris and southern France have been reduced by probably 50% or more. Travel time reduction have also been achieved from Bruxelles and Antwerpen to Rotterdam and Amsterdam and for almost any trip from Belgium to Germany.
On the other hand travel times from almost anywhere in Belgium to places elsewhere in Belgium have increased, as have in general travel times from places in Belgium to places right across the border. So the utility to those who have been footing the bill is rather limited.

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Not to mention that the whole UK is much closer to Europe and Belgium in particular. If you can't spot the improvements you must be rather blind.
Oh I can spot the improvements. But I also see the improvements that could have been achieved, but weren't. A lot of the gain by French style HST services gets lost again in "friction" at the interfaces. The result is that it's become easier to get to Paris, but harder to go to other places.
People from the west of Belgium look at a map, and ask themselves why they first need to travel eastward for over an hour, and then spend over half an hour in Brussel to go to London. So they take the car and go to Lille Europe in stead. There are actually hourly train connections to Lille from Oostende, Gent and Brugge, but because they go to Lille Flandres, whereas the TGVs stop at Lille Europe they are not very useful. The SNCF is only slowly starting to grasp the value of operating trains as part of a network...
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Old November 17th, 2010, 06:10 PM   #714
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...

On the other hand travel times from almost anywhere in Belgium to places elsewhere in Belgium have increased, as have in general travel times from places in Belgium to places right across the border. So the utility to those who have been footing the bill is rather limited.



Oh I can spot the improvements. But I also see the improvements that could have been achieved, but weren't. A lot of the gain by French style HST services gets lost again in "friction" at the interfaces. The result is that it's become easier to get to Paris, but harder to go to other places.
People from the west of Belgium look at a map, and ask themselves why they first need to travel eastward for over an hour, and then spend over half an hour in Brussel to go to London. So they take the car and go to Lille Europe in stead. There are actually hourly train connections to Lille from Oostende, Gent and Brugge, but because they go to Lille Flandres, whereas the TGVs stop at Lille Europe they are not very useful. The SNCF is only slowly starting to grasp the value of operating trains as part of a network...
With Stuttgart 21, passengers can travel to the rest of Germany and Europe from Stuttgart HBF and Stuttgart Flughafen with less time and from Stuttgart HBF to all the farms in Baden Württemberg without decreased levels of services.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 07:38 PM   #715
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That's why he clearly speaks about the situation in Belgium, not in Germany.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 08:09 PM   #716
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That's why he clearly speaks about the situation in Belgium, not in Germany.

The thread is "Stuttgart 21 - 4.5 bn Eur for new rail hub."
The thread is clearly hijacked by people who come up with the propaganda of Germany just copying the worst of European railroad practices and Switzerland having so much to teach Germany.

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...
Those global guerrilla protesters always look for something new to protest against and stop the constructions for the heck of it every decade. At this age and date, they have found the railways as the new target:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1258053

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Old November 18th, 2010, 12:34 AM   #717
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It's not just about Oostende. It's "everywhere to the west of Brussel". That's a sizable part of the country.
No, not all places west of Bruxelles had a direct connection to Köln. So they haven't lost it.

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On the other hand travel times from almost anywhere in Belgium to places elsewhere in Belgium have increased, as have in general travel times from places in Belgium to places right across the border. So the utility to those who have been footing the bill is rather limited.
Right across the border is a place called Lille. You get pretty quick there from Bruxelles, Antwerpen and Liège.
There are also several mainlines in Belgium beyond its high speed network which are reasonably fast. The route from Brugge to Liège is served at travel speeds hardly surpassed by Swiss railways.
The link between Bruxelles and Antwerpen could do better. But there seem to be improvements on its way.

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Oh I can spot the improvements. But I also see the improvements that could have been achieved, but weren't. A lot of the gain by French style HST services gets lost again in "friction" at the interfaces. The result is that it's become easier to get to Paris, but harder to go to other places.
Well, Paris is the place to go. It always has been and always will be this way. Get used to it. Some cities are more equal than others. Allocating the biggest share of funds to these routes is therefore a necessity.

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People from the west of Belgium look at a map, and ask themselves why they first need to travel eastward for over an hour, and then spend over half an hour in Brussel to go to London. So they take the car and go to Lille Europe in stead.
Boarding trains to the UK include a border control. You can hardly blame Belgian railways or Eurostar for that.

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There are actually hourly train connections to Lille from Oostende, Gent and Brugge, but because they go to Lille Flandres, whereas the TGVs stop at Lille Europe they are not very useful.
Most people can walk the 200 m between Lille Europe and Lille Flandres. Just some Swiss can't.

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The SNCF is only slowly starting to grasp the value of operating trains as part of a network...
Now we just have to wait on the SBB to understand that a rail network isn't accomplished without a backbone of proper high speed.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 07:24 AM   #718
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With Stuttgart 21, passengers can travel to the rest of Germany and Europe from Stuttgart HBF and Stuttgart Flughafen with less time and from Stuttgart HBF to all the farms in Baden Württemberg without decreased levels of services.
Maybe you haven't noticed, but I'm not principally against Stuttgart 21. I do have some issues with the way the ones responsible for it have completely failed to involve the public in the process. And there are some details of the plan that don't look that good either now that I've had a chance to study it more.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 07:37 AM   #719
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There are also several mainlines in Belgium beyond its high speed network which are reasonably fast. The route from Brugge to Liège is served at travel speeds hardly surpassed by Swiss railways.
Average speeds on The Oostende - Brussel mainline are below what SBB does on comparable lines. And travel times have increased over the last years.
Oostende is 121 km from Brussel. The fastest train on that route did it in 1h3m in 1983. Right now the fastest train takes 1h12m.

I grew up in Belgium, and now live in Switzerland. I'm in a pretty good position to compare.

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The link between Bruxelles and Antwerpen could do better. But there seem to be improvements on its way.
Travel times are longer on that route than they were in the 80ies too.

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Most people can walk the 200 m between Lille Europe and Lille Flandres. Just some Swiss can't.
I know you can. I can. I often walk between Nord and Est in Paris. However not everyone can. And the weather isn't always good either. Last time I got of the train in Lille Europe it was raining cats and dogs.

Quote:
Now we just have to wait on the SBB to understand that a rail network isn't accomplished without a backbone of proper high speed.
SBB seems to understand better than anyone else in Europe how to provide a service that people like to use. The passenger numbers prove it.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 08:06 AM   #720
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I know you can. I can. I often walk between Nord and Est in Paris. However not everyone can. And the weather isn't always good either. Last time I got of the train in Lille Europe it was raining cats and dogs.
Both are separated just by one stop in Lilly subway, if I am not wrong. I agree, though, that it would be sensible to construct an underground hub for all rail traffic in Lille and close down both stations and sell them + their yards for development.

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SBB seems to understand better than anyone else in Europe how to provide a service that people like to use. The passenger numbers prove it.
It does that at expense of investments from the Swiss government in much-needed highways.
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