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Old November 18th, 2010, 09:47 AM   #721
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Both are separated just by one stop in Lilly subway, if I am not wrong. I agree, though, that it would be sensible to construct an underground hub for all rail traffic in Lille and close down both stations and sell them + their yards for development.
you can take the metro. The problem is that if something happens on the way (ie metro breaks down) and you miss your connection you're stuck...
That's why indeed having one major terminal in a city Is a good thing, and that is something Germany has exactly right.

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It does that at expense of investments from the Swiss government in much-needed highways.
There is actually more congestion on the rails than on the road in Switzerland... There aren't really any urgently needed highways.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 09:57 AM   #722
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The thread is "Stuttgart 21 - 4.5 bn Eur for new rail hub."
The thread is clearly hijacked by people who come up with the propaganda of Germany just copying the worst of European railroad practices and Switzerland having so much to teach Germany.
I've just finished reading two articles in the "Eisenbahn Revue" about Stuttgart 21, and yes, Switzerland can teach Germany a thing or two.
For one, involving the stakeholders more in the project. In Switzerland you would never have a mass protest against a project. You'd have a referendum.
For another, think about the trains you want to run in advance. The current plan fore example includes a at grade connection between the line to Ulm and the Wendlinger Curve, which means that it won't be possible to increase the frequency of the RE exptresses to Tübingen without impacting the capacity of the high speed line. Also the connection with the airport is not optimal, with a single track connection having to handle 17 trains per hour...

One of the early plans for Stuttgart were for a new line under the city, with a new underground station at right angle to the current one, but keeping the current station too for regional traffic. That would probably have been the optimal solution from a railway operation point of view.
The current project is the result of a political process, that mostly took place away from the eyes of the public.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 11:11 AM   #723
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SBB seems to understand better than anyone else in Europe how to provide a service that people like to use. The passenger numbers prove it.
Actually Belgium traffic is not that bad, it's comparable with The Netherlands.

Belgium 10 billions pkm, The Netherlands 16 billions pkm, Switzerland 20 billions pkm, Italy 50 billions pkm, France 80 billions pkm, Germany 80 billions pkm

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It does that at expense of investments from the Swiss government in much-needed highways.
Swiss voted (in the AVANTI initiative) against more lanes on the Lausanne-Genève, Bern-Olten-Zürich and Gotthard motorways, but accepted improvements in railways, they could have voted the opposite, but haven't, you have to accept that.

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For one, involving the stakeholders more in the project. In Switzerland you would never have a mass protest against a project. You'd have a referendum.
That's a reason of the growing number of mass protests in Europe (mainly against Stuttgart 21 and the Lyon-Turin, but present everywhere).
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Old November 18th, 2010, 01:52 PM   #724
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Average speeds on The Oostende - Brussel mainline are below what SBB does on comparable lines. And travel times have increased over the last years.
Oostende is 121 km from Brussel. The fastest train on that route did it in 1h3m in 1983. Right now the fastest train takes 1h12m.
72 min for 121 km result in 100 km/h travel speed. The same speed reached by the fastest trains between Basel and Zürich. So much for the Swiss superiority.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 02:32 PM   #725
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Maybe you haven't noticed, but I'm not principally against Stuttgart 21. I do have some issues with the way the ones responsible for it have completely failed to involve the public in the process. And there are some details of the plan that don't look that good either now that I've had a chance to study it more.
It is actually the other way around. The public has failed to engage themselves in the project all these years and then has let a zealous political party wanting to increase its dominance in Germany drive them crazy. How come the public did not spend more time at the project exhibition center and ask those middle-aged retired engineers who are against the projects more questions throughout all these years?
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Old November 18th, 2010, 02:38 PM   #726
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I've just finished reading two articles in the "Eisenbahn Revue" about Stuttgart 21, and yes, Switzerland can teach Germany a thing or two.
For one, involving the stakeholders more in the project. In Switzerland you would never have a mass protest against a project. You'd have a referendum.
For another, think about the trains you want to run in advance. The current plan fore example includes a at grade connection between the line to Ulm and the Wendlinger Curve, which means that it won't be possible to increase the frequency of the RE exptresses to Tübingen without impacting the capacity of the high speed line. Also the connection with the airport is not optimal, with a single track connection having to handle 17 trains per hour...

One of the early plans for Stuttgart were for a new line under the city, with a new underground station at right angle to the current one, but keeping the current station too for regional traffic. That would probably have been the optimal solution from a railway operation point of view.
The current project is the result of a political process, that mostly took place away from the eyes of the public.
What a nonsense. Oh my God, Switzerland only needs to teach Germany and the world and Switzerland has nothing to learn from the rest of the world.

Germany can teach the world how to build cars.
Heathrow can teach the world how to max out two fully separated runways.
Hong Kong can teach the world how to run mass transits.
Scandinavia can teach Germany about immigrant integration.
...
etc.

Switzerland is Switzerland; what works in Switzerland should not be forced onto the world because the "Swiss Concept" does not necessarily work anywhere else.

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...
All the "regional" transportation initiatives in Germany, including those in Bavaria, keep "national" transportation policies in mind. The cantons in Switzerland are akin to "landkreise" in Germany, only in terms of geographic size. Actually, political systems work rather differently in Switzerland and Germany. The "landkreise" and the important multiple metropolitan centers scattered throughout Germany are not equal in status/power. Neither are all the German federal states equal. A train trip from Frankfurt to Munich would probably take five or six hours if all the "landkreise" had absurdly equal say in the German transportation policy!
...

Last edited by aab7772003; November 18th, 2010 at 05:27 PM.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 03:01 PM   #727
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Switzerland is Switzerland; what works in Switzerland should not be forced onto the world because the "Swiss Concept" does not necessarily work anywhere else.
Ofcourse nothing needs to be forced. I'm just making observations, and noticing how the Swiss system is being adopted elsewhere, without any "forcing" being needed. What does that tell you?
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Old November 18th, 2010, 03:05 PM   #728
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
It is actually the other way around. The public has failed to engage themselves in the project all these years and then has let a zealous political party wanting to increase its dominance in Germany drive them crazy. How come the public did not spend more time at the project exhibition center and ask those middle-aged retired engineers who are against the projects more questions throughout all these years?

What is there against letting the public vote on this? The fact that they might vote against is not an argument against a referendum.
What is there against letting the public know how this particular variant came to be the preferred one? Why is almost no public documentation available on what went on before the final plan?
What is there against actually listening to experts?

Anyway, what is your problem?
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Old November 18th, 2010, 03:12 PM   #729
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You can go all the way back to the days of Otto von Bismarck to explain why the direct voting system that works in Switzerland would never work in Germany. It is far from perfect. It meant in some (Swiss) Cantons women were denied the right to vote until the early 1990's. Such a system would never flourish, for good, in a far more diverse and big country like Germany, where it would be impossible to conciliate interests in München and Hamburg every time a project is put forward!
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Old November 18th, 2010, 03:19 PM   #730
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Ofcourse nothing needs to be forced. I'm just making observations, and noticing how the Swiss system is being adopted elsewhere, without any "forcing" being needed. What does that tell you?
It tells me exactly nothing, especially your French example mentioned earlier is so freaking vague.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 03:21 PM   #731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Anyway, what is your problem?
YOU are a problem.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
What is there against actually listening to experts?
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
...
One single evil corporation vs. the people is such a tired old trick. In reality, there are many companies involved in Stuttgart 21 and the NIMBYs are the struggling minorities at the bottom of the society. What is happening in Stuttgart is not democracy, it is rather civil disobedience master-mined by a political party with a self-serving desire to dominate national politics. Of course, the tired old trick is very convenient to employ to further the party´s political ambitions. Words from the middle-aged, bespectacled and possibly retired German engineers alone cannot possibly make people go crazy and chain themselves onto trees. I am waiting to see a few more of those "typical Stuttgarters" popping their bloody eye balls out and I am taking my time to wait for the next outbreaks of civil disobedience.

Those global guerrilla protesters always look for something new to protest against and stop the constructions for the heck of it every decade. At this age and date, they have found the railways as the new target:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1258053
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
What is there against letting the public vote on this? The fact that they might vote against is not an argument against a referendum.
Yes, it is a valid argument because referendum is not exclusively a democratic process but often a political manipulation tool. I would rather see a national referendum on this issue. There was no referendum on moving the capital back to Berlin; the whole folly is really just a money loosing vanity project. You probably have not heard of "the tyranny of majority."

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
What is there against letting the public know how this particular variant came to be the preferred one? Why is almost no public documentation available on what went on before the final plan?
Why wasn´t the public so vocal about it, let´s say, back in 1989? Is civil disobedience the best way to demand the release of documents?

Last edited by aab7772003; November 18th, 2010 at 04:40 PM.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 03:34 PM   #732
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72 min for 121 km result in 100 km/h travel speed. The same speed reached by the fastest trains between Basel and Zürich. So much for the Swiss superiority.
Have you compared the geography between the two lines? That NMBS only manages 100kph on a line that is flat and straight is a scandal. That travel times are longer now than they were when the line was still operated with steam trains an even bigger one.

And anyway, Basel - Zürich in 53 minutes, that makes an average 110kph according to my math. Speeding the line up would only make sense if you got the trip time under half an hour, which would cost a lot of money for maybe a little benefit. SBB intends to cut half an hour on trips from east to west through different means.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 05:13 PM   #733
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Have you compared the geography between the two lines?
Of course I have. I compared line speed which allows railway lines to take a longer way due to physical obstacles. I could have calculate travel speed on the basis of linear distances which would have been less favourable for Switzerland.

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And anyway, Basel - Zürich in 53 minutes, that makes an average 110kph according to my math.
53 min for 88,4 km result in 100,0 km/h.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 07:41 PM   #734
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Speeding the line up would only make sense if you got the trip time under half an hour, which would cost a lot of money for maybe a little benefit. SBB intends to cut half an hour on trips from east to west through different means.
That is the problem, K. In your world, time has become a discrete variable available only in integer divisors of 60.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 08:02 PM   #735
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http://www.sbb.ch/en/

From: Piacenza
To: Genova
Date: Any
Hour: 11.17

Then look on details...
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Old November 19th, 2010, 08:19 AM   #736
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That is the problem, K. In your world, time has become a discrete variable available only in integer divisors of 60.
Since when?

The problem is that in "your world" a railway undertaking should only look at its trains, and completely ignore the passengers.

In Switzerland the railways get money in order to improve the network. Why is it that you are so incredibly set against SBB using the money to create the maximum benefit for the taxpayer?
Are you a communist or something that you don't care about the taxpayers or the customers?
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Old November 19th, 2010, 08:22 AM   #737
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Of course I have. I compared line speed which allows railway lines to take a longer way due to physical obstacles.
Are you now claiming that line speeds on a curvy route are the same as on a straight route? Do you know anything about railways, actually?
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Old November 19th, 2010, 08:31 AM   #738
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
http://www.sbb.ch/en/

From: Piacenza
To: Genova
Date: Any
Hour: 11.17

Then look on details...
I suppose there is something odd or funny I should notice there, but I don't. Other than that the trip involves a long layover. Shows how optimizing the timetable can save a lot of time. 40 minutes even in this case.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 09:58 AM   #739
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That is, lack of coordination leads to long waiting times between trains even if the two single trains I cited are actually relatively fast their combination offer a slow connection. There are other examples like Bern-Domodossola-Bologna.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 10:04 AM   #740
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That is, lack of coordination leads to long waiting times between trains even if the two single trains I cited are actually relatively fast their combination offer a slow connection. There are other examples like Bern-Domodossola-Bologna.
Trenitalia is becoming more focused on point-to-point transportation, like what it's been doing since the Torino-Salerno (Napoli if you want) HSL was finally opened. DB should, to a certain extent, do the same: with projects like Stuttgart 21 and others, focus more on a handful of key cities and prioritize their connectivity through high-speed lines while bringing the ax to some money-losing regional slow services. Then those people could all join the nearest Autobahn, which Germany has plenty
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