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Old November 19th, 2010, 01:23 PM   #741
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I think that in the near future more and more people will travel by fast trains. Its cheaper, more simple and even faster then the airplane. Also its 100% evironment friendly!

So Germany should build fast train tracks that connects the big cities!
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Old November 19th, 2010, 01:43 PM   #742
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Germany should have built maglev lines between all big cities. But now its too late.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 02:50 PM   #743
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Are you now claiming that line speeds on a curvy route are the same as on a straight route?
I didn't say that. Although they can be equally fast. Curves aren't the only reasons for speed restriction. In case of the SBB trains aren't faster because of their very own holy grail, their time table. So don't blame it on topography when the SBB isn't faster than the Belgian railways.

By the way the rail-line Basel-Zürich isn't that particular curvy. Barring a few kilometres it is rather straight.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 03:11 PM   #744
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
I didn't say that. Although they can be equally fast. Curves aren't the only reasons for speed restriction. In case of the SBB trains aren't faster because of their very own holy grail, their time table.
SBB's philosophy is that they transport passengers, not run trains around. I know that's a concept that some people have trouble wrapping their brain around.
SBB always looks at the consequences for the travelling public when deciding how and when to run a train. The means it has for improving services are not unlimted, so it has to spend them wisely. That the Swiss railways have a larger share of the transportation market than any other railway in Europe does seem to point towards them doing something right, doesn't it?

Quote:
So don't blame it on topography when the SBB isn't faster than the Belgian railways.
First of all, I don't have to blame anything on topography. I'm just saying that despite the topography SBB seems to do a far superior job when it comes to moving passengers around in a speedy way than NMBS does.

On what should we blame the fact that Belgian railways gets slower every year, whereas Swiss railways get faster every year?
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Old November 19th, 2010, 04:23 PM   #745
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
SBB's philosophy is that they transport passengers, not run trains around. I know that's a concept that some people have trouble wrapping their brain around.
SBB always looks at the consequences for the travelling public when deciding how and when to run a train. The means it has for improving services are not unlimted, so it has to spend them wisely. That the Swiss railways have a larger share of the transportation market than any other railway in Europe does seem to point towards them doing something right, doesn't it?



First of all, I don't have to blame anything on topography. I'm just saying that despite the topography SBB seems to do a far superior job when it comes to moving passengers around in a speedy way than NMBS does.

On what should we blame the fact that Belgian railways gets slower every year, whereas Swiss railways get faster every year?
This thread is "Stuttgart 21 - 4.5 bn Eur for new rail hub."

But the thread ends up with these conclusions circulating around:

-DB is evil because all DB cares is making money in secrecy, at the expense of "regular people."
-SBB is so competent and virtuous because serves such a perfectly democratic country.
-Other national railroad operators in Europe are just so messed up with their operations.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 04:25 PM   #746
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In Germany, DB runs trains and wants a high-speed hub in Stuttgart. End of story.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 05:43 PM   #747
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
This thread is "Stuttgart 21 - 4.5 bn Eur for new rail hub."

But the thread ends up with these conclusions circulating around:

-DB is evil because all DB cares is making money in secrecy, at the expense of "regular people."
-SBB is so competent and virtuous because serves such a perfectly democratic country.
And it does so because some posters (yes, I'm looking at you aab7772003) are unable to notice that a lot of positions taken by people in this thread carry quite a bit of nuance.
In case you haven't haven't noticed (and if you still don't after this post, I will asume that you plainly refuse to notice nuance), I have actually stated that I'm not with the opponents of Stuttgart 21...
I've even stated that I think that what the opponents claim, that a Swiss style "integrales taktfahrplan" would be impossible with the new station is impossible is as far as I can see not true.
I'm just voicing my opinions on how the current mess could have been prevented. And there Switzerland certainly has a few lessons to teach to the Germans in my opinion.
For some however it appears that everything must be hyperbole...

As to the last statement:

Quote:
Other national railroad operators in Europe are just so messed up with their operations.
That seems to be indeed the concensus amongst the "other national railroad" operators, as they all seem to look at the Swiss with envy and copy what they can...
Even France is going to a system wide interval schedule in 2012.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 06:09 PM   #748
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
And it does so because some posters (yes, I'm looking at you aab7772003) are unable to notice that a lot of positions taken by people in this thread carry quite a bit of nuance.
In case you haven't haven't noticed (and if you still don't after this post, I will asume that you plainly refuse to notice nuance), I have actually stated that I'm not with the opponents of Stuttgart 21...
I've even stated that I think that what the opponents claim, that a Swiss style "integrales taktfahrplan" would be impossible with the new station is impossible is as far as I can see not true.
I'm just voicing my opinions on how the current mess could have been prevented. And there Switzerland certainly has a few lessons to teach to the Germans in my opinion.
For some however it appears that everything must be hyperbole...

As to the last statement:



That seems to be indeed the concensus amongst the "other national railroad" operators, as they all seem to look at the Swiss with envy and copy what they can...
Even France is going to a system wide interval schedule in 2012.
It is not like that Germany is not running "integrales taktfahrplan."
It was not like Spain and France, etc. looked at Switzerland with envy when they built HSR networks.
Your "nuances" are all about "How perfect Switzerland is" and mostly other operators besides DB have messed up. I can your see "nuances" alright.

You are anything but "nuances"

It is time to extract all your opinions out of this thread and create a new thread called "Look, Switzerland is flawless" thread.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 20th, 2010 at 10:17 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 06:18 PM   #749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
It is not like that Germany is not running "integrales taktfahrplan."
It was not like Spain and France, etc. looked at Switzerland with envy when they built HSR networks.
Your "nuances" are all about "How perfect Switzerland is" and mostly other operators besides DB. I can your see "nuances" alright.

You are anything but "nuances"

It is time to extract all your opinions out of this thread and create a new thread called "Look, Switzerland is flawless" thread.
Well, you've proved my point. To you there is only hyperbole.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 06:22 PM   #750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Well, you've proved my point. To you there is only hyperbole.
Your point you think you have.

Again, it was not like Spain and France, etc. looked at Switzerland with envy when they built HSR networks. Furthermore, it is not like that Germany is not running "integrales taktfahrplan."

Germany is a country of federal states with different economic and political powers. Switzerland sure can teach Germany about cantons with equal powers, but then Germany is not a country with all the landkreise having equal say in the political decision making process.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 19th, 2010 at 07:05 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 04:35 AM   #751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
First of all, I don't have to blame anything on topography. I'm just saying that despite the topography SBB seems to do a far superior job when it comes to moving passengers around in a speedy way than NMBS does.
Well, given the current state of affairs with the Belgian rail network, this is
really not something to write home about, isn't it ? A vaincre sans péril, on
triomphe sans gloire...
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Old November 21st, 2010, 04:39 AM   #752
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
On what should we blame the fact that Belgian railways gets slower every year, whereas Swiss railways get faster every year?
Essentially on the most incompetent management team that belgian railways
has had in decades, on a tatally demotivated railworker class, and a very
badly managed split between infrastructure and operation...
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Old November 21st, 2010, 03:38 PM   #753
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Well, given the current state of affairs with the Belgian rail network, this is
really not something to write home about, isn't it ? A vaincre sans péril, on
triomphe sans gloire...
I've got 30 years of experience traveling on the Belgian network. Only 10 years of experience on the Swiss network...
I can tell you that the Swiss railways are superior in so many different ways that its almost tragic really.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 03:40 PM   #754
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Quote:
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Essentially on the most incompetent management team that belgian railways
has had in decades, on a tatally demotivated railworker class, and a very
badly managed split between infrastructure and operation...
I know. In Belgium they've spend a lot of money on modernizing infrastructure and rolling stock (with some quite nice trains as a result) but completely forgot to modernize the railway company itself. Maybe they should hire Benedict Weibel. I think that once the Westbahn is running he'll be looking for something else.
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Old December 17th, 2010, 07:18 PM   #755
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The newspapaer FAZ reports that Deutsche Bahn thinks about replacing the outdated Inter City rolling stock with new double decker stock (that is already ordered with Bombardier for regional services) until the delayed ICx project (new trains to replace the inter city fleet and later the ICE1 buildt by Siemens) will be delivered. The double deckers probably would be ordered with more poshy features and could run up to 190kph.
http://www.faz.net/s/RubD16E1F55D211...~Scontent.html
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Old January 12th, 2011, 07:21 PM   #756
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Here we go, DB officially announced the order of 27 train sets consisting of 135 waggons worth 362 million Euros in order to face the inter city rolling stock shortage. They will run on less frequented lines with lower top speeds. They will enter service at the end of 2013.

One train set will consist of a loco and five waggons with room for ca. 470 passengers.

First renders:


Source and more information in German: Spiegel Online.
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Old January 14th, 2011, 07:36 PM   #757
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Here we go, DB officially announced the order of 27 train sets consisting of 135 waggons worth 362 million Euros in order to face the inter city rolling stock shortage. They will run on less frequented lines with lower top speeds.
So instead of speeding up lines, they order "lesser" rolling stock
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Old January 14th, 2011, 08:46 PM   #758
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We talk about lines where "speeding up" doesn't make sense as they don't have enough passengers that such a massive investment would be justified. For these lines the top speed of 160 vmax (they try to get approval for 190) is way enough. And (at least according to DB) they are more an interim solution untill the faster ICx are ready and to solve the rolling stock shortage.
And of course, you have to keep in mind that it is absolutely unrealistic to expect "speeding up" of any line within five years, that usually takes a lot more time in countries like Germany.
You simply can't compare short-term investments with long-term investments.
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Old January 25th, 2011, 01:16 PM   #759
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Complete composition of the new double decker inter city sets:
http://img148.imageshack.us/f/dostoic.jpg/

and high resoluting JPEG of the cab:
http://www.bombardier.com/files/de/s...WINDEXX-HR.jpg
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Old January 26th, 2011, 01:28 PM   #760
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Additionally, the word instead in Suburbanists contribution is wrong, as these are additional trainsets that have been derived from an existing outline agreement between DB and Bombardier. They will allow to easen up the current rolling stock situation earlier than the new ICX trainsets will arrive.
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