daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old March 30th, 2011, 05:53 PM   #861
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
That would be against my notions of personal privacy and akin to a Police State. Public transportation, OTOH, is optional. All air passengers are scanned, screened and traced, why shouldn't train passengers be?
Given that the current security theatre imposed on the airline passenger serves no real purpose (other than allowing politicians to be seen to do "something") why should it be inflicted on railway passengers too?
Anyway, if you're against the police state you should love the fact that in Europe you can still walk up to a ticket desk at a railway station, buy a ticket using cash and travel to the other side of the EU without there being a paper trail...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old March 30th, 2011, 06:05 PM   #862
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Given that the current security theatre imposed on the airline passenger serves no real purpose (other than allowing politicians to be seen to do "something") why should it be inflicted on railway passengers too?
Anyway, if you're against the police state you should love the fact that in Europe you can still walk up to a ticket desk at a railway station, buy a ticket using cash and travel to the other side of the EU without there being a paper trail...
Nominal ticketing is not related to a police state. Opting to use public transportation means you surrender some of your privacy to share an airplane or train with strangers, maybe stranger who are terrorists (and you don't want that), so it is more than reasonable to surrender some data that helps catch terrorists.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 30th, 2011, 09:37 PM   #863
pietje01
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 488
Likes (Received): 8

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Benjamin Franklin)
pietje01 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 31st, 2011, 12:05 AM   #864
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Quote:
Originally Posted by pietje01 View Post
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Benjamin Franklin)
Is there a liberty for travel anonymous on public transportation? I think the option to use transit or commercial airplanes instead of car or private jet automatically renders your expectation of privacy bar lowered.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 31st, 2011, 08:31 AM   #865
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Is there a liberty for travel anonymous on public transportation?
Is there a good reason for not allowing anonymous travel on public transporation?

As far as I can see there isn't.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 31st, 2011, 08:19 PM   #866
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

Cue the vandalism and terrorism prevention cards.
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 1st, 2011, 08:40 AM   #867
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Nominal ticketing is not related to a police state. Opting to use public transportation means you surrender some of your privacy to share an airplane or train with strangers, maybe stranger who are terrorists (and you don't want that), so it is more than reasonable to surrender some data that helps catch terrorists.
Given the the preferred mode of transportation for terrorists is the private car it is more than reasonable to require cars be searched at every intersection as that surely will help to catch some terrorists...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 1st, 2011, 01:29 PM   #868
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Given the the preferred mode of transportation for terrorists is the private car it is more than reasonable to require cars be searched at every intersection as that surely will help to catch some terrorists...
No, because car is a PRIVATE mean of transportation as is the bicycle and the Segway.

================

I have an unrelated question: does DB have any plans for more ICE Sprinter services (like those connecting Berlin-Frankfurt and Frankfurt-München non-stop)?

Such services usually saves a lot of time on those routes, and should be expanded to cover more routes like München-Berlin (I couldn't find ICE Sprinter on this route) and maybe some direct Köln-Berlin not-stop services also.

Italy has introduced some direct trains like those on its HS lines and they have been a huge success.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 1st, 2011, 01:48 PM   #869
imbee
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 194
Likes (Received): 11

money (4.1 billion euro!!!) was reserved for stuttgart21. Other projects depend on that project. nobody can say nowadays if stuttgart 21 will be built. we will have to wait
imbee no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 1st, 2011, 01:51 PM   #870
Svartmetall
Ordo Ab Chao
 
Svartmetall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Past: Northampton, UK (19 years), Auckland NZ (7 years), Now: Stockholm, Sweden
Posts: 14,077
Likes (Received): 8831

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
No, because car is a PRIVATE mean of transportation as is the bicycle and the Segway.
I'm sorry, but that doesn't address his point that private vehicles have, more often than public vehicles, been the site of terrorist activity. Should we, therefore in the interest of public safety be checking cars at roadblocks?

You can't argue that people should forego their personal freedoms to use public transport and then say that private vehicles are exempt from any security considerations. That just seems double standard to me.
Svartmetall no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 1st, 2011, 03:20 PM   #871
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I have an unrelated question: does DB have any plans for more ICE Sprinter services (like those connecting Berlin-Frankfurt and Frankfurt-München non-stop)?

Such services usually saves a lot of time on those routes, and should be expanded to cover more routes like München-Berlin (I couldn't find ICE Sprinter on this route) and maybe some direct Köln-Berlin not-stop services also.
Services like that have never been that successfull in Germany (think about the Metropolitan in earliers days). Germans are to used to trains functioning like mass transit.

Quote:
Italy has introduced some direct trains like those on its HS lines and they have been a huge success.
Doesn't surprise me. But how much of the success of Trenitalia's premium trains is due to the low quality of it's non premium trains?
The main thing the E*AV and other premium trains offer over conventional trains in Italy is that they actually get cleaned regularly.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 1st, 2011, 04:33 PM   #872
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Services like that have never been that successfull in Germany (think about the Metropolitan in earliers days). Germans are to used to trains functioning like mass transit.
I beg to disagree. The Sprinter is one of the most popular services in the German system, it was always sold out to the last seat. Admittedly, the only Sprinter on the Köln-Berlin run was scraped ages ago, but it was never promoted as such. As the idea is that Sprinters serve typical business travel connections (get up early; reach your destination by 9 or 10; have your meetings and be back on the train home by 1700 hrs and arrive for a late dinner with your spouse), there are no such services on long distance connections, but I would bet they will be introduced when Berlin - München is oeprable in 4 hours (6 years from now).
I would seriously hope they develop the sprinter further, as not every train has to stop in Göttingen, but trains from Berlin to Frankfurt that save 30 minutes of traveling time have a huge potential. This would come close to the French TGV system, which also provides services with alternating stops and overall traveling time on the same route. Such a system is practiced in Germany only on the Köln-Frnakfurt line, where Siegburg, Montabaur, and Limburg are only stopped at by every second train (or less).
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 1st, 2011, 06:56 PM   #873
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Doesn't surprise me. But how much of the success of Trenitalia's premium trains is due to the low quality of it's non premium trains?
The main thing the E*AV and other premium trains offer over conventional trains in Italy is that they actually get cleaned regularly.
I was referring to the Milano-Roma (Milan-Rome) route. They have high speed trains (stopping in Bologna and Firenze SMN) on normal service and some ES*AV-Fast trains that use the same rolling stock, but don't stop, taking 2h50 for the whole journey (instead of 3h35).

It is akin to the German ICE Sprinter, though there is less time difference.

(Just as background: the fastest entirely non-high speed option between that pair of cities takes 6h43).
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 1st, 2011, 07:26 PM   #874
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

The fastest Milan-Rome before the opening of the Milan-Bologna-Florence HSL, but after the opening of the Florence-Rome HSL, took exactly 4 hours.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 1st, 2011, 07:46 PM   #875
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
I beg to disagree. The Sprinter is one of the most popular services in the German system, it was always sold out to the last seat. Admittedly, the only Sprinter on the Köln-Berlin run was scraped ages ago, but it was never promoted as such. As the idea is that Sprinters serve typical business travel connections (get up early; reach your destination by 9 or 10; have your meetings and be back on the train home by 1700 hrs and arrive for a late dinner with your spouse), there are no such services on long distance connections, but I would bet they will be introduced when Berlin - München is oeprable in 4 hours (6 years from now).
For business travelers however you need to offer lots of trains. A businessman finishing a meeting an hour earlier wants to hop on the train an hour earlier...
The sprinters were probably popular because they ran at busy times. However I see the SBB struggling to get people on trains that run out of the normal pattern, so I doubt their general usefulness.
It is not efficient to offer a particular train service only a few times a day and have it sit idle in the yards the rest of the day (as SNCF is wont to do).
So if offer a non stop service the whole day, every hour, or not at all...

Quote:
I would seriously hope they develop the sprinter further, as not every train has to stop in Göttingen, but trains from Berlin to Frankfurt that save 30 minutes of traveling time have a huge potential. This would come close to the French TGV system, which also provides services with alternating stops and overall traveling time on the same route. Such a system is practiced in Germany only on the Köln-Frnakfurt line, where Siegburg, Montabaur, and Limburg are only stopped at by every second train (or less).
The way the SNCF does it you lose a lot of network effects. In France it is quite possible that two stations on the same line both have frequent service, and still it's not practical to travel by train between the two.
A good network, with a clear hierarchy and structure will always attract more passengers than a network that is ran as a collection of city pair connecting services...

Ideally you have a local service, a limited stop service and a non stop service , at least every hour. More if demand justifies it.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 1st, 2011, 07:53 PM   #876
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I was referring to the Milano-Roma (Milan-Rome) route. They have high speed trains (stopping in Bologna and Firenze SMN) on normal service and some ES*AV-Fast trains that use the same rolling stock, but don't stop, taking 2h50 for the whole journey (instead of 3h35).

It is akin to the German ICE Sprinter, though there is less time difference.

(Just as background: the fastest entirely non-high speed option between that pair of cities takes 6h43).
It's not entirely the same, as the non stop trains Roma - Milano run about every hour (or even every half hour). Looking at the current schedule I would improve it like this:
- Every half hour Milano - Roma Tiburtina - Napoli (no need to reverse in and out of Termini, and lose 20 minutes)
- Every half hour Milano - Bologna -Firenze - Roma Tiburtina (to change for Napoli) - Roma Termini.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 1st, 2011, 08:02 PM   #877
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

Milan-Rome no stop trains are integrated in a swiss-style symemtric timetable and they simply use cadenced path which are not used outside rush hour. Confusion and problems rises with Turin-Milan-Rome-Naples trains which skip Milan Centrale stopping in Garibaldi and destroying suburban trains...

By the way this thread should be about Germany, not about timetable structures...
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2011, 01:17 AM   #878
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
Milan-Rome no stop trains are integrated in a swiss-style symemtric timetable and they simply use cadenced path which are not used outside rush hour. Confusion and problems rises with Turin-Milan-Rome-Naples trains which skip Milan Centrale stopping in Garibaldi and destroying suburban trains...
I very much doubt that they destroy something.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 2nd, 2011, 09:09 AM   #879
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

This junction with its old signalling system is a limiting factor, now there aren't too many trains and these are more or less logically places and it works, but I'm feared for the future. A few years ago there was a worse example, a Genova-Milano Garibaldi Eurostar running via this junction and created whithout any planning so that it delayed some other trains along this route because Trenitalia wanted it as fast as possible (by the way its average load was 40 (forty) people on 9 coaches).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 14th, 2011, 11:03 PM   #880
Deadeye Reloaded
Cold Ass Honkey
 
Deadeye Reloaded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Göttingen/Lüdenscheid/Rybnik
Posts: 2,330
Likes (Received): 8965

Surprise, surprise...

Quote:
Germany's Bahn and Siemens reach train order deal

BERLIN, April 14 | Thu Apr 14, 2011 10:46am EDT

BERLIN, April 14 (Reuters) - German national rail operator Deutsche Bahn has reached a deal for a new order worth over five billion euros for high-speed trains from producer Siemens, industry sources told Reuters on Thursday.

"The parties have agreed," an industry source familiar with the negotiations said, declining to be named.

"We are in the final end phase of the talks," a spokesman for Deutsche Bahn said.

The deal involves the purchase of 300 high-speed ICE trains and would be the largest order ever by Deutsche Bahn.

(Reporting by Markus Wacket, writing by Brian Rohan)


More information in German:

Quote:
300 Züge für Bahn
Siemens steht vor Fünf-Milliarden-Auftrag

Die Lieferung von 300 ICE-, IC- und EC-Zügen mit einem Volumen von rund 5 Milliarden Euro entspricht dem bislang größten Bahnauftrag in Deutschland. Die neue Generation, die unter dem Projektnamen „ICx“ läuft, soll langfristig die alten Züge ersetzen.


[...]
__________________
I may not be perfect, but Jesus thinks I´m to die for.
I can't stand auto correct. It's my worst enema!
I often quote myself. I find it adds spice to the conversation.
What Is Love?

Last edited by Deadeye Reloaded; April 14th, 2011 at 11:10 PM.
Deadeye Reloaded no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium