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Old April 15th, 2011, 12:59 AM   #881
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Surprise, surprise...





More information in German:
This is quite exciting! It will be the Velaro D I assume?
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Old April 15th, 2011, 02:46 AM   #882
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I was expecting DB do put some orders for V250, but it seems Ansaldo-Breda's new train will not enter DB fleet for another decade They invested a hell of money to develop V250, it is a good train now that it is on the market, but they didn't get any other major orders other than that of HSA (Fyra).
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Old April 15th, 2011, 04:19 AM   #883
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I was expecting DB do put some orders for V250, but it seems Ansaldo-Breda's new train will not enter DB fleet for another decade They invested a hell of money to develop V250, it is a good train now that it is on the market, but they didn't get any other major orders other than that of HSA (Fyra).
Those are two words I never thought I'd see in the same context.
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Old April 15th, 2011, 04:36 AM   #884
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Those are two words I never thought I'd see in the same context.
They have some production problems, but the ETR series is highly successful, particularly the ETR500. Had they gotten some big more orders for the V250, they could be fighting with Alstom, but now AnsaldoBreda is lagging its competitors, even Talgo.
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Old April 15th, 2011, 04:09 PM   #885
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They have some production problems, but the ETR series is highly successful, particularly the ETR500. Had they gotten some big more orders for the V250, they could be fighting with Alstom, but now AnsaldoBreda is lagging its competitors, even Talgo.
As far as I know, yes the ETR 500 was a good product, but the V250, the IC4 from Denmark and others have given them a reputation for delays and poor reliability in fulfilling the order. They do, however generally make good-looking vehicles (The V250 is debatable, though).
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Old April 15th, 2011, 05:57 PM   #886
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This is quite exciting! It will be the Velaro D I assume?

Deutsche Bahn describes this replacement project as "ICx" because these 300 new trains will replace IC and the ICE1/2 trains which are currently used.

As far as I understand these ICx trains will be used as common platform for the IC and ICE1, ICE2 successor. So we could see something totally new instead of the Velaro D.
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Old April 15th, 2011, 05:59 PM   #887
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Those are two words I never thought I'd see in the same context.
+1
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Old April 15th, 2011, 09:17 PM   #888
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I was expecting DB do put some orders for V250, but it seems Ansaldo-Breda's new train will not enter DB fleet for another decade They invested a hell of money to develop V250, it is a good train now that it is on the market, but they didn't get any other major orders other than that of HSA (Fyra).


AnsaldoBreda can't even produce a quality miniature train if you ask me. The past decade, none of their orders have been successful. Oh and by the way, the ETR 500 was built by a consortium consisting of Alstom, Bombardier and AnsaldoBreda. If the ETR 500 was AnsaldoBreda's sole responsability Italy still wouldn't have had it, I think.

V250 is years late, still hasn't gotten it's admission on any railway network, problems keep arising. Latest news is that commercial service for HSA can't be expected before April 2012 while only a little while ago this was September 2011...

IC4 is still in the progress of being delivered and AnsaldoBreda has repayed DSB a large sum of the contract. And just recently it became known that a train designed exclusively for DSB showed up in Libya, a gift of Berlusconi. If AnsaldoBreda had any decency they'd said "No" to Berlusconi when he asked them.

Then there are problems in the USA with cars that are way too heavy, promises that can't be fulfilled, the list goes on and on. The only reason that Stadler and Bombardier cooperate with AnsaldoBreda is because it gets them orders in Italy.

Now, back to Die Bahn: finally an agreement for ICx, good news. 300 high speed trains, it's one of the biggest orders of the past decade I think. I wonder what the trains will look like and what their characteristics will be. Hopefully DB and Siemens can show some things at InnoTrans 2012.

Last edited by AlexNL; April 15th, 2011 at 10:52 PM.
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Old April 16th, 2011, 12:53 AM   #889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadeye Reloaded View Post

Deutsche Bahn describes this replacement project as "ICx" because these 300 new trains will replace IC and the ICE1/2 trains which are currently used.

As far as I understand these ICx trains will be used as common platform for the IC and ICE1, ICE2 successor. So we could see something totally new instead of the Velaro D.

Yes, ICx replaces IC later ICE1 and ICE 2. The ICx will be the second product of DB for lond distances beside Velaro.


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Now, back to Die Bahn: finally an agreement for ICx, good news. 300 high speed trains, it's one of the biggest orders of the past decade I think. I wonder what the trains will look like and what their characteristics will be. Hopefully DB and Siemens can show some things at InnoTrans 2012.
If you mean the design, it will look close to Velaro and will be in classic white (grey) and a red stipe like all lond distance trains of DB
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Old April 16th, 2011, 07:40 PM   #890
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That's the livery, which will definitely be the same of the current IC and ICE stock (as long as they won't change their CI, obviously).
But regarding the actual design of the train, afaik Siemens so far didn't even release a single concept art. You can expect it to look similar to the ICE 3 or Velaro D (personally, I think it might look somehow similar to the ICT), but it might just as well end up looking completely different. We'll see.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 01:27 AM   #891
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How come AB can't make good trains?
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Old April 17th, 2011, 03:33 PM   #892
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Originally Posted by thun View Post
That's the livery, which will definitely be the same of the current IC and ICE stock (as long as they won't change their CI, obviously).
But regarding the actual design of the train, afaik Siemens so far didn't even release a single concept art. You can expect it to look similar to the ICE 3 or Velaro D (personally, I think it might look somehow similar to the ICT), but it might just as well end up looking completely different. We'll see.
Indeed. Given that DB is not even going bi-level on IC routes we might even see something that recycles parts of Siemens offer to SBB...
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Old April 17th, 2011, 04:55 PM   #893
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
I was expecting DB do put some orders for V250, but it seems Ansaldo-Breda's new train will not enter DB fleet for another decade They invested a hell of money to develop V250, it is a good train now that it is on the market, but they didn't get any other major orders other than that of HSA (Fyra).
Siemens started building the ICE family in the late 80s- early nineties with the ICE1, then followed by the ICE2, and lately by the ICE 3 family.

The ICE 3 and its variations have been sold in many Countries. By now it is a well tested product.

Why would DB want to buy AnsaldoBreda V250, which is a very poor product with very poor technical specifications, unreliable and with a lot of teething problmes?.

The AB V250 is a well known flop. Not even Trenitalia has bought it.

AnsaldoBreda V250 brochure & technical specifications.

http://www.ansaldobreda.it/upload/al...1_ITA_v250.pdf

Last edited by joseph1951; April 17th, 2011 at 05:27 PM.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 06:27 PM   #894
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Afaik, the ICx won't be based on the Velaro (which isn't the ICE 3, to be completely correct), although it might use some components of it. It's going to be a completely new design if I understood correctly.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 06:33 PM   #895
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Indeed. Given that DB is not even going bi-level on IC routes we might even see something that recycles parts of Siemens offer to SBB...
Umm, yes they are? DB has ordered 137 Twindexx double deck coaches from Bombardier. Press release
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Old April 17th, 2011, 06:41 PM   #896
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The ICE 3 and its variations have been sold in many Countries. By now it is a well tested product.

Why would DB want to buy AnsaldoBreda V250, which is a very poor product with very poor technical specifications, unreliable and with a lot of teething problmes?.
I don't know much about Ansaldo Breda and maybe you're right but you must be fair and mention that DB had huge problems (and still has) with the ICE during summer and winter
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Old April 17th, 2011, 07:43 PM   #897
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Yeah but Siemens has problems with trains it has actually built and put into service. AnsaldoBreda can't even manage that. The issues Siemens has with the ICE3 a partly due to it being the first of a new generation of technology for Siemens, and partly because it wasn't a purely Siemens product, there was other input not least from DB itself - they haven't repeated what mistakes there were with the Velaro range.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 09:23 PM   #898
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Yeah but Siemens has problems with trains it has actually built and put into service. AnsaldoBreda can't even manage that. The issues Siemens has with the ICE3 a partly due to it being the first of a new generation of technology for Siemens, and partly because it wasn't a purely Siemens product, there was other input not least from DB itself - they haven't repeated what mistakes there were with the Velaro range.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 09:40 PM   #899
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I was referring to the Milano-Roma (Milan-Rome) route.
1-
They have high speed trains (stopping in Bologna and Firenze SMN) on normal service and some ES*AV-Fast trains that use the same rolling stock, but don't stop, taking 2h50 for the whole journey (instead of 3h35).

2-#
(Just as background: the fastest entirely non-high speed option between that pair of cities takes 6h43).
Presently the best timing between Milan Central Station and Rome Termini is 2h 59 minutes. The line (via HSLs stretches) is about 560 km long and has about 490 km of high speed track authorised for 250-300 km/h runnings.
Namely:
228,5 kms @ 300 km/h
32 kms @ 240 km/h
232 kms @250 km/h
Despite this if they were to put into revenue an IC V200, or an IC V220, it could cover the journey between Milan Central and Rome Termini in about 3h, 35 minutes... 3h 40'.

2-
The Italian IC services have been shamefully slowed down and drastically reduced in their frequency in order to force people on the so called High Speed Frecciarossa AV Fast , which is not soo fast but certainly is very expensive.

Last edited by joseph1951; April 17th, 2011 at 10:17 PM.
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Old April 17th, 2011, 10:03 PM   #900
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1--
for all trains, abolish the outdated practice of selling tickets onboard. Conductors should be there only to provide some information but, in regard of fares, only to FINE, severely, people travelling without proper tickets, not to sell tickets for lazy people who can't come 3-5 minutes early to buy a ticket from electronic machines (now a commodity in most rail systems).

.
When I lived in USA it was common to buy last minute aeroplane tickets at the Check in. And yet nowadays some people are advocating the advance and compulsory purchase of train tickets and the abolition of train conductors. It does not take long to issue an on-board train ticket,

Futhermore: to sell a ticket is no different than to sell a drink...

Flexibility is one of the advantage of a satisfactory mass trasportation system.
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