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Old April 17th, 2011, 11:34 PM   #901
Suburbanist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph1951 View Post
When I lived in USA it was common to buy last minute aeroplane tickets at the Check in. And yet nowadays some people are advocating the advance and compulsory purchase of train tickets and the abolition of train conductors. It does not take long to issue an on-board train ticket,

Futhermore: to sell a ticket is no different than to sell a drink...

Flexibility is one of the advantage of a satisfactory mass trasportation system.
If you have ubiquitous machines in every station, and machines that can self-report errors online (both are run-of-the-mill terminals available for many operations like movie theater ticketing, airport check-in, car park payment etc.), there is no reason to spend money on conductors, the number of conductors can be severely reduced. I *really* don't see what problem is that for people to buy tickets at machines in the station (or via their smartphones, internet, whatever) at this day and age. However, if you have on-board ticketing you need to assure conductors will check every person in every sector if you want to avoid fare dodgers (like those annoying teenagers who abscond in the bathroom to travel between 2 stations 7 min. apart) and an impression that you can travel for free.

Even in big metropolitan areas, more and more systems are gated (subways) or honor-based controlled without on-board selling of tickets. People just figure a way to buy their metro cards before going through a gate.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 10:08 AM   #902
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If you have ubiquitous machines in every station, and machines that can self-report errors online (both are run-of-the-mill terminals available for many operations like movie theater ticketing, airport check-in, car park payment etc.), there is no reason to spend money on conductors, the number of conductors can be severely reduced. I *really* don't see what problem is that for people to buy tickets at machines in the station (or via their smartphones, internet, whatever) at this day and age. However, if you have on-board ticketing you need to assure conductors will check every person in every sector if you want to avoid fare dodgers (like those annoying teenagers who abscond in the bathroom to travel between 2 stations 7 min. apart) and an impression that you can travel for free.

Even in big metropolitan areas, more and more systems are gated (subways) or honor-based controlled without on-board selling of tickets. People just figure a way to buy their metro cards before going through a gate.
For local transport that is indeed possible, but expanding it to intercity travel is another matter. In The Netherlands they're moving to a chip card based system for the whole country, but they stil don't know what they'll do with passengers arriving from abroad.
SBB fortunately still sells tickets on board. What they do is they just make the on board tariff more expensive. The conductor may choose to wave the on board surcharge if you have a good reason for not having a ticket all the way to your final destination. (Having started your trip in Italy for example).

However, it's interesting to not that private operators, running in open access have no problem whatsoever with selling tickets on board...
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Old April 18th, 2011, 10:23 AM   #903
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The Dutch also have a surcharge for tickets bought on board of the train at the price of € 35 in addition to the ticket price. This is their way of forcing passengers to use the ticket vending machines (or, use a subscription).
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Old April 18th, 2011, 02:55 PM   #904
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Quote:
La Deutsche Bahn investit dans de nouveaux trains rapides


Source : La Tribune.fr - 15/04/2011

Copyright Reuters
Selon le Handelsblatt, l'opérateur public va prochainement annoncer la commande de 300 trains de nouvelle génération à Siemens, pour un montant total de 5 milliards d'euros.

La Deutsche Bahn (DB) va renouveler d'ici à 2020 l'intégralité de son parc de trains à grande vitesse. L'opération se fera en plusieurs étapes. Selon le quotidien économique allemand Handelsblatt, Siemens, son fournisseur historique va recevoir une première commande de l'opérateur ferroviaire public de près de 5 milliards d'euros pour l'achat de 300 trains de nouvelle génération.

Baptisé pour le moment ICx, ces trains entreraient en service en 2015 d'abord pour remplacer les trains inter-régionaux (IC) puis les premiers ICE mis en service voici tout juste 20 ans. Cet investissement qui est en négociation avec Siemens depuis des mois doit être approuvé le 21 avril par le conseil de surveillance de la DB.
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...s-rapides.html

Sum-up :

DB wants to buy 500 new trains to Siemens for 5 billions euros. All HST will be replace before 2020. Regional trains will be replace and then HST.
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Old April 18th, 2011, 04:34 PM   #905
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I know I'm not the first one to ask this question, but anyways:

1) Why is Deutsche Bahn buying new trains for its IC-service? Why dont they just buy Velaros for their ICE-service, and use today's ICE 1&2 as IC's?

2) What will happen with today's ICE 1&2?

3) What will happen to today's IC-trains. Will they be converted to regional trains or sold?

Thanks in advance
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Old April 18th, 2011, 04:55 PM   #906
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maniei View Post
I know I'm not the first one to ask this question, but anyways:

1) Why is Deutsche Bahn buying new trains for its IC-service? Why dont they just buy Velaros for their ICE-service, and use today's ICE 1&2 as IC's?

2) What will happen with today's ICE 1&2?

3) What will happen to today's IC-trains. Will they be converted to regional trains or sold?

Thanks in advance
To answer your questions in reverse order:

3) Most IC trains will need to be run with HSL compatible stock in the future, as the number of services that don't use a HSL at last for part of the route will be quite limited. DB is gradually adding HSL segments to its network, and the way the German Railway Network operates it makes sense for DB Reise Und Touristik to just operate a fleet of HSL compatible trains. Most of the stock currently in use on IC services is nearing the end of its economic life, but quite probably there will be buyers for the carriages.

2) By 2020 the ICE 1&2 will be nearing the end of their economic life, so they will also be gradually replaced by the new trains.

1) See the answer to questions 2&3
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Old April 18th, 2011, 10:43 PM   #907
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I can see a lot heading to eastern europe as they ramp up their services over the coming years.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 12:25 AM   #908
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Umm, yes they are? DB has ordered 137 Twindexx double deck coaches from Bombardier. Press release
Partly true. In fact, they shift train sets already ordered for regional services (DB ordered over 800 carriages!) to the long distance division to provide an interim solution untill the ICx is ready. Those trains will go into regional services after enough ICx stock is in service to run it on all IC routes.

I guess that there will be a few private operators in Germany as well who will be interested in those carriages. Or they will be sold around the world, as it is good tradition for DB.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 01:02 PM   #909
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If you have ubiquitous machines in every station, and machines that can self-report errors online (both are run-of-the-mill terminals available for many operations like movie theater ticketing, airport check-in, car park payment etc.), there is no reason to spend money on conductors, the number of conductors can be severely reduced. I *really* don't see what problem is that for people to buy tickets at machines in the station (or via their smartphones, internet, whatever) at this day and age. However, if you have on-board ticketing you need to assure conductors will check every person in every sector if you want to avoid fare dodgers (like those annoying teenagers who abscond in the bathroom to travel between 2 stations 7 min. apart) and an impression that you can travel for free.

Even in big metropolitan areas, more and more systems are gated (subways) or honor-based controlled without on-board selling of tickets. People just figure a way to buy their metro cards before going through a gate.
It's all about service not about making things unnecessarily complicated for the traveller (security checks , no onboard ticketing etc) because some people may take advantage of it. That's not the way to attract new costumers.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 02:33 PM   #910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Partly true. In fact, they shift train sets already ordered for regional services (DB ordered over 800 carriages!) to the long distance division to provide an interim solution untill the ICx is ready. Those trains will go into regional services after enough ICx stock is in service to run it on all IC routes.
I have not seen that stated explicitely anywhere. It is pretty unlikely that the low-density routes that will see those trains are going to be serviced by the ICx anytime soon. The train sets are not just shifted, they are specially adjusted for long distance services. The 800 carriages are more like a LOI and only now, those 137 have actually been ordered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
I guess that there will be a few private operators in Germany as well who will be interested in those carriages. Or they will be sold around the world, as it is good tradition for DB.
Actually, it is quite a tradition of DB to rather let their old carriages rot or destroy them instead of selling them to competitors.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 02:57 PM   #911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by De Magellaan View Post
It's all about service not about making things unnecessarily complicated for the traveller (security checks , no onboard ticketing etc) because some people may take advantage of it. That's not the way to attract new costumers.
Has usage of Dutch trains, just across German border, decreased because of the OV-Chipkaart or mandatory pre-boarding ticket purchase?

As DB requires subsidies to pay for regional services, it should not be in the business of being convenient, but just providing efficient service. Public services that are not self-financing need to restrain their ancillary spending because that will reduce subsidies required to run the service itself.

Manpower is expensive in Germany, it would be a good thing to shed off some couple thousand conductor jobs in the long term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dase View Post
Actually, it is quite a tradition of DB to rather let their old carriages rot or destroy them instead of selling them to competitors.
Depending on the competition scenario, that would make perfectly sense.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 07:57 PM   #912
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Quote:
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Has usage of Dutch trains, just across German border, decreased because of the OV-Chipkaart or mandatory pre-boarding ticket purchase?
That's hard to say as there are so many other variables at play. Mobility is increasing in society so train usage tends to go grow anyway.
But its feasible it would have grown more if there was better service. The NS had a better reputation before it was 'privatized' and still had services like catering on intercity trains and onboard-ticketing. I do think that matters when attracting new train users.

Quote:
As DB requires subsidies to pay for regional services, it should not be in the business of being convenient, but just providing efficient service. Public services that are not self-financing need to restrain their ancillary spending because that will reduce subsidies required to run the service itself.

Manpower is expensive in Germany, it would be a good thing to shed off some couple thousand conductor jobs in the long term.
Ideally I would like the railway companies to make their own decisions when it comes to offering these services and being convenient. If a company offers a lot of convenience it might attract enough new costumers to be able to run their train services with less subsidies. If not, then perhaps it's a better idea to not have that extra convenience. Let the market decide how convenient it has to be.
Of course the market conditions depend a lot on how much subsidies there are, so it all depends on how much people are willing to spend on a public service. I realize that in these economic times that's not a whole lot.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 08:54 PM   #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Has usage of Dutch trains, just across German border, decreased because of the OV-Chipkaart or mandatory pre-boarding ticket purchase?
As far as I know there are is only one local Dutch trains service that crosses in to Germany. All the others are actually German services that cross in to the Netherlands. In most cases it appears they just "import" whatever tarrif system and practices they have.

Quote:
As DB requires subsidies to pay for regional services, it should not be in the business of being convenient, but just providing efficient service. Public services that are not self-financing need to restrain their ancillary spending because that will reduce subsidies required to run the service itself.

Manpower is expensive in Germany, it would be a good thing to shed off some couple thousand conductor jobs in the long term.
Most conductors that could be shed have already been. One man operation is quite common.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 08:54 PM   #914
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It's worth mentioning, that the ICX won't be a new product category. It will just be a technology platform. A 250-280kph version will replace the ICE1 and ICE2 trains running current ICE services, while a 230km/h variant will replace the trains currently used for IC services.
DB's product categorys will remain as they are: ICE as fast premium product, mainly for high speed services between Germany's large metropolitan regions, that will gradually get more and more high speed sections - and IC as secondary long distance trains with more stops in smaller towns, less comfort and lower speeds.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 09:01 PM   #915
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Quote:
Originally Posted by De Magellaan View Post
Ideally I would like the railway companies to make their own decisions when it comes to offering these services and being convenient. If a company offers a lot of convenience it might attract enough new costumers to be able to run their train services with less subsidies. If not, then perhaps it's a better idea to not have that extra convenience. Let the market decide how convenient it has to be.
In Austria the first open access operator "Westbahn" is completely ignoring Suburbanist's suggestions. They are going to run a tight interval service, they will have a simple tariff system, and you will be able to purchase tickets on board without a fuss...
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Old April 19th, 2011, 09:23 PM   #916
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Germany is a big (geographically) country. It needs more than 2 + 1 service categories, don't you all think?

I am considering the ICE Sprinter a particular category because it is a distinctive service despite the common name.

Germany could introduce a service with fewer stops than regular ICEs but more than ICE Sprinter and running more often.

They could also put some trains running only on high-speed sectors, and use connections to reach cities on classical or upgraded lines.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 09:35 PM   #917
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Germany is not Spain. We like things sorted. Hence, we don't need a individual category for every train on the schedule.

I rather think that reintroducing the Inter Regio (maybe classified as a regional service) would be more attractive for most customers.
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Old April 19th, 2011, 10:13 PM   #918
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I rather think that reintroducing the Inter Regio (maybe classified as a regional service) would be more attractive for most customers.
Long-stretched regional trains with gazillion stops in 300km routes are the receipt for lower operational performance, delays and network disruptions. You would rather have compact regional routes instead.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 10:43 AM   #919
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Not at all.
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Old April 20th, 2011, 10:23 PM   #920
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Germany is a big (geographically) country. It needs more than 2 + 1 service categories, don't you all think?
Sure that is why there are ICE, IC, EC, IRE, RE, RB, S (and that's just DB...)
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