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Old May 18th, 2011, 12:36 PM   #961
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Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
And meanwhile British trains have both better food and beer than either French or German trains. No honestly, they do...
Including my favorite: The Caledonian Sleeper. Best beds I ever had on a train, and a good whisky bar :-)
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Old May 18th, 2011, 12:46 PM   #962
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Food onboard trains is overrated and restaurant cars eat up (pun intended) valuable space on platforms and train consists. A couple of vending machines spread long the train could do the job. No reason for an on-board board.

Indeed, I think the existence of restaurant cars incentive people to walk on a train, which is detrimental to safety.
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Old May 18th, 2011, 05:03 PM   #963
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Of course it is.
In fact, I think we should replace all those standard seats with loos so that no-one ever has to stand up during the travel because he wants to have a dump affecting the trains stability and maybe causing a derailing.
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Old May 19th, 2011, 02:17 PM   #964
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If people were required to wear seatbelts on trains, particularly around departing/arrival, like airplanes, trains could then accelerate/decelerate with greater intensity.
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Old May 19th, 2011, 03:49 PM   #965
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If people were required to wear seatbelts on trains, particularly around departing/arrival, like airplanes, trains could then accelerate/decelerate with greater intensity.
Yet another example of why I am happy to live in a world where you have no say in how railways are run.
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Old May 19th, 2011, 09:37 PM   #966
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Food onboard trains is overrated and restaurant cars eat up (pun intended) valuable space on platforms and train consists. A couple of vending machines spread long the train could do the job. No reason for an on-board board.

Indeed, I think the existence of restaurant cars incentive people to walk on a train, which is detrimental to safety.
While we're at it, why don't we get rid of bathrooms aboard airplanes. I mean, it forces passengers to get up and walk on the plane. This is detrimental to safety.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 08:11 AM   #967
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While we're at it, why don't we get rid of bathrooms aboard airplanes. I mean, it forces passengers to get up and walk on the plane. This is detrimental to safety.
It is detrimental to safety, to the point use of washrooms is forbidden under turbulence, on climbing and landing phases. Here and there you can read news about passengers hurt, sometimes severely, because unexpected turbulence hit a plane while they were not wearing seat belts. That is why I always keep my seat belt fastened while seated on a plane.

If trains had this concept of departing and arriving phases, passengers would be forbidden to walk during fast acceleration and deceleration phases, which could EASILY be multiplied by 2 or more in high-speed train sets. Indeed, the emergency braking deceleration is so different and higher than the regular braking parameters for comfort only, not as much for technical issues with the trains. Faster acceleration and deceleration would, in completely segregated high-speed rails like Hamburg-Berlin Spandau, easily take 3-5 minutes out of a 1h trip. It is almost a 10% travel time gain.

In lines with specific speed reductions, warning of seat and fasten your seat belt could be flashed around. Then, in a high-speed route like Milano-Roma, full of some urban sectors and a bunch of curves, you could gain up to 11 minutes using acceleration within the specifications of already existing and functioning rolling stock, only by sacrificing a bit of comfort.

However, the highest potential gains from travel time reduction lie exactly in trains like German ICEs, that stop somehow often, but not in every station. Trains travelling 3h non-stop don't have much to gain from increased acceleration or deceleration. Trains stopping every 6 minutes would not benefit much either, because seat belt-wearing train passengers means trains cannot depart until everyone is seated and prepared to depart, which will naturally increase the time stopped on stations a bit. You can counteract that imposing a "be-on-platform-5-min-before-schedule-departure-or-don't-board" rule.

But then you can get rid of restaurant cars, which opens space for more paying costumers, and build galleys like airplanes instead. You order and eat food in your seat, nor from a free-flowing lounge over rail.

In cases of collisions, having passengers with seat belts would increase survivability should an accident like Eschede happen again.

The rail industry has so much to learn from the airline business...
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Old May 20th, 2011, 01:58 PM   #968
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Walking around in trains, bistro/restaurant, no strict seat assignments etc are exactly the advantages that make trains an alternative to flying.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 03:00 PM   #969
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Depending on the train you are using, assignments are strict - like on high-speed trains usually running with high occupancy rates and compulsory seat reservation like Thalys or Eurostar (Paris-London). The question, however, is to sacrifice comfort for speed, making travel journeys faster. There is a limit in what you can achieve in terms of top speed only, so accelerating faster might be a way to gain time.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 03:22 PM   #970
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I completely agree with goschio on this. And it's not so much assignments, not just the lack of seatbelts, it's also the lack of fast excelaration itself and never really feeling the speed of the train, which makes it much easier to read a book, work on a laptop or play cards than it is in a car or on a plane. Your idea takes away possibly the biggest advantage of rail, and 5 minutes per hour isn't worth that.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 07:55 PM   #971
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If trains had this concept of departing and arriving phases, passengers would be forbidden to walk during fast acceleration and deceleration phases, which could EASILY be multiplied by 2 or more in high-speed train sets.
You are wrong in your assumption that acceleration could easily be multiplied by 2 in high speed sets.

Quote:
Indeed, the emergency braking deceleration is so different and higher than the regular braking parameters for comfort only, not as much for technical issues with the trains. Faster acceleration and deceleration would, in completely segregated high-speed rails like Hamburg-Berlin Spandau, easily take 3-5 minutes out of a 1h trip. It is almost a 10% travel time gain.
Speeding up acceleration in long distance trips will not gain a lot of time. It is on short distance, frequently stopping services that high acceleration yields the biggest advantages. But there having "departing" and "arriving" phases, and seat belts is a complete non starter.
Increasing the acceleration of the ICE trains on Berlin Hamburg might save maybe a minute or two, at a very high cost.

Quote:
In lines with specific speed reductions, warning of seat and fasten your seat belt could be flashed around. Then, in a high-speed route like Milano-Roma, full of some urban sectors and a bunch of curves, you could gain up to 11 minutes using acceleration within the specifications of already existing and functioning rolling stock, only by sacrificing a bit of comfort.
You could even run faster if you got rid of passengers altogether. Is that what you are aiming at?

Quote:
However, the highest potential gains from travel time reduction lie exactly in trains like German ICEs, that stop somehow often, but not in every station. Trains travelling 3h non-stop don't have much to gain from increased acceleration or deceleration. Trains stopping every 6 minutes would not benefit much either, because seat belt-wearing train passengers means trains cannot depart until everyone is seated and prepared to depart, which will naturally increase the time stopped on stations a bit. You can counteract that imposing a "be-on-platform-5-min-before-schedule-departure-or-don't-board" rule.
However, all this is incompatible with the "as a railway I must try to make as much money as possible" rule. I mean, you want to shave a few minutes of a trip, and then force passengers to add 5 minutes of loitering aimlessly on a uncomfortable platform to their trip? Do you think that this wil really yield more income?

Quote:
But then you can get rid of restaurant cars, which opens space for more paying costumers, and build galleys like airplanes instead. You order and eat food in your seat, nor from a free-flowing lounge over rail.
You don't need seat belts to have an excuse to get rid of restaurant cars. That it forces you to get rid of restaurant cars is a huge disadvantage of forcing train passengers to wear seat belts.

Quote:
In cases of collisions, having passengers with seat belts would increase survivability should an accident like Eschede happen again.

The rail industry has so much to learn from the airline business...
In Casualties per pkm the railway industry performs better than the airline industry. I don't see the need here to adopt airline practices.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 08:05 PM   #972
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You are wrong in your assumption that acceleration could easily be multiplied by 2 in high speed sets.
Most high-speed sets accelerate pretty slowly actually. Urban commuter trains can hit twice that - without seatbelts.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 08:55 PM   #973
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Most high-speed sets accelerate pretty slowly actually. Urban commuter trains can hit twice that - without seatbelts.
At low speeds acceleration is determined by the ratio of powered to unpowered axles. At higher speeds it's installed power that is the important factor.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 08:57 PM   #974
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Depending on the train you are using, assignments are strict - like on high-speed trains usually running with high occupancy rates and compulsory seat reservation like Thalys or Eurostar (Paris-London). The question, however, is to sacrifice comfort for speed, making travel journeys faster. There is a limit in what you can achieve in terms of top speed only, so accelerating faster might be a way to gain time.
You're not going to gain a lot by faster acceleration. And don't forget that the first minutes after a train leaves is when a lot of standing up and walking a round still takes place. People putting their luggage away. Getting their laptop out or still looking for their reserved seats...
The other thing is that if Eurostar wanted to speed up London - Paris a bit all they have to do is do away with the 30 minute check in time.
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Old May 20th, 2011, 09:52 PM   #975
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The other thing is that if Eurostar wanted to speed up London - Paris a bit all they have to do is do away with the 30 minute check in time.
With the proposed London-Frankfurt Eurostar services, we'll see how platform control will be managed at Frankfurt Hbf. I don't know the layout of that station to know whether they can build another extra platform with easiness or not.

To get rid of 30-min check-in, they would have to have more customs officers. I'm sure that keeping customs officers in foreign territory as the Eurostar requires is expensive. There are probably a lot of overhead costs in keeping and managing a bunch of immigrations agents from UK stationed in Frankfurt, Bruxelles and Paris.

But let's see if they are able to reduce check-in times or not. Part of it lays on German ability to speed up security checks. part on British customs. However, with not so many daily departures, I don't see the point of having a huge detachment of 12 immigration officers per turn + 20-25 people working in security checks and organizing the queues.

I'm also curious about how Germans are going to manage custom: will they let if to the French under Schengen agreemtn or will they help the French stationing some agents in London also?
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 12:53 PM   #976
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I'm also curious about how Germans are going to manage custom: will they let if to the French under Schengen agreemtn or will they help the French stationing some agents in London also?
They will probably let it to the French in London. This is already like this for the London-Brussels Eurostar, no matter if they stop at Lille (France) on their way or not.
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 02:19 PM   #977
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They will probably let it to the French in London. This is already like this for the London-Brussels Eurostar, no matter if they stop at Lille (France) on their way or not.
In practice, the new costs will be mostly on the British, then, with new staff in Frankfurt.
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 02:56 PM   #978
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In practice, the new costs will be mostly on the British, then, with new staff in Frankfurt.
Why couldn't the existing customs staff at Frankfurt do it?
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 02:58 PM   #979
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Why couldn't the existing customs staff at Frankfurt do it?
Are there British customs officials stationed in Frankfurt? Not even FRA airport have pre-clearance facilities.
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Old May 23rd, 2011, 03:02 PM   #980
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Are there British customs officials stationed in Frankfurt? Not even FRA airport have pre-clearance facilities.
There is both a presence of the Bundespolizei, and Customs officers at Frankfurt HBF. Just like at the airport.
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