daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old June 14th, 2011, 02:48 PM   #1061
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385



Which is the hump yard, by the way, that is to see the hump undergo reconstruction?
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old June 14th, 2011, 03:07 PM   #1062
kato2k8
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 527
Likes (Received): 106

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
If you were to analyse specific corridors, such as the trans-Alpine corridor or that between Lubeck and South Germany/Northern Italy, you'd find, I think, that intermodal transport has a much higher share of the overall market, and most of this traffic consists of semi-trailers.
I live on just that corridor (TEN 24, near Mannheim), and we don't really get that much intermodal transport other than millions of containers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
If you omit this market, and focus just on the overland market within central Europe, certainly on the North-South axis, I'm sure that intermodal takes a greater share than numbers above suggest.
Road transport is still the one dominating the market. And even if we only look at rail transport, we get regular transport taking 83.8%, containers taking 14.5% and other intermodal transport taking only 1.7%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
Which is the hump yard, by the way, that is to see the hump undergo reconstruction?
Halle GBf, a planned 36-track hump for 125 million Euro. Construction has been postponed a couple times, current planned start (as of last month) is in 2012.
kato2k8 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 03:25 PM   #1063
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385



Certainly I would say shipping container trains outnumber Continental traffic trains along that route, simply due to the amount ot imports/exports going via Hamburg, Bremen and Rotterdam.

However, the Continental traffic trains are still reasonably numerous, as the timetables of Kombiverkehr and Hupac show. Plus there are enough video uploads on sites like youtube of these trains to show that they do indeed carry, in some cases, mostly semi-trailers.

It is true though, that there remains a large road transport market within Central Europe that is not in any way making use of any kind of intermodal technique, swap body or semi-trailer. So yes, in this sense, there is plenty of scope for improvement.
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 03:29 PM   #1064
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

With regards to the plan for a new yard at Halle, are there any kind of graphics showing the plans that you know of?

I've just had a look at an aerial photo of the town and the railway area looks to be quite messy and at an angle, so I can't at the moment see where this yard will go.
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 03:55 PM   #1065
kato2k8
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 527
Likes (Received): 106

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
Plus there are enough video uploads on sites like youtube of these trains to show that they do indeed carry, in some cases, mostly semi-trailers.
Yeah, although semi-trailers are actually declining in usage - depending on the transported goods companies are switching to loading directly into truck-carried containers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
I've just had a look at an aerial photo of the town and the railway area looks to be quite messy and at an angle, so I can't at the moment see where this yard will go.
It'll go where the current one is, in that curve north of the main passenger station. Haven't seen any graphics yet.
kato2k8 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 04:47 PM   #1066
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Passengers are an inhomogeneous group of people. Almost everyone travels between a different pair of stations. So, calling at stations is as advantageous as it is disadvantageous. The solution is to set up services of different stopping patterns. And one of these must be a service that runs fast and doesn't call for several hundred kilometres.
If there is enought demand to fill a non stop train, yes, ofcourse, it should be offered. but don't forget that demand will not only be spread geographical, but also in time. Their might be enough people wanting to go non stop from Basel to Köln to fill an ICE set, but they don't necessarily all want to travel at the same time. So what will offer the most value to travellers? One Basel - Karlsruhe + one Basel - Mannheim + One Basel - Frankfurt Airport + one Basel - Köln? Or just regular service Basel - Karlsruhe - Mannheim - Frankfurt - Köln?
I think that latter is better...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 04:49 PM   #1067
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
Surely it's true to say that in Europe, Germany has the most refined intermodal service network for Continental traffic, along with Switzerland, Northern Italy and Scandinavia.
I regularly see trains passing here in Switzerland complete loaded with trailers from one transportation company. Often even several per day. Hangärter must be sending lots of trailers across the alps...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 05:00 PM   #1068
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I have a passion for automobiles, I'm the moderator of what is probably the most important forum about cars in Italy. I love driving. And that's why I HATE having to drive in those cases which give me no other option. I HATE driving 100-150 km of highways, or even more, mainly because I'm surrounded by retards who don't do that properly and often put me in danger, and also because it's incredibly boring. I get angry and stressed and I don't like that.
I'm just like K_: I don't want to have a car because I'm obliged to have one, I want the freedom to choose. And I'm ready to pay for it, if needed.
Indeed. I like driving a car too. I like driving it somewhere where the driving is interesting (mountains passes for example :-). Driving long distances on the motorway, or commuting to work by car is not for me. Going somewhere by TGV or night train, and renting a car at my destination is. I also take part in a car sharing scheme (which is very well developed in Switzerland).
And one of the advantages of not owning a car is that with the money saved you can afford to rent something exciting now and then...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 05:09 PM   #1069
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by kato2k8 View Post
Yeah, although semi-trailers are actually declining in usage - depending on the transported goods companies are switching to loading directly into truck-carried containers.
They are mostly using Swap Bodies, or the newer European Intermodal Load Units. Traditional containers are hardly used for intra-european freight.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 05:33 PM   #1070
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

The truth is, more and more semi-trailers are being seen on trains across Germany, in large part due to the expansion of the piggyback fleets run by existing intermodal customers, such as those serving the Scandinavian market, and the entrance of previously road-only transport companies, such as those based in the Netherlands.

It's not true to say there is a general switch by piggyback trailer operators to 13.6m (45ft) swap body operations within the German/Scandinavian/Alpine/North Italy area. Most operators are carrying on with using piggyback trailers, which these days have a good tare-weight to overall-weight ratio in comparison to older designs. They are, therefore, quite efficient to operate.

On the other hand, there are some notable examples of a switch away from piggyback trailers. One company is Fercam, which seems to have now quite a large fleet of 13.6m swap bodies/containers for services to/from Italy and Holland, and P&O Ferrymasters, which now seems to have no piggyback trailers at all within the fleet it runs, where as only a few years ago it had many.

Hangartner is actually a bit of a special case, given that it is 100 per cent in ownership by DB Schenker, and it exists purely to provide piggyback trailer and swap body solutions across the North-South trade routes.
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 05:46 PM   #1071
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21257

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
If there is enought demand to fill a non stop train, yes, ofcourse, it should be offered. but don't forget that demand will not only be spread geographical, but also in time. Their might be enough people wanting to go non stop from Basel to Köln to fill an ICE set, but they don't necessarily all want to travel at the same time. So what will offer the most value to travellers? One Basel - Karlsruhe + one Basel - Mannheim + One Basel - Frankfurt Airport + one Basel - Köln? Or just regular service Basel - Karlsruhe - Mannheim - Frankfurt - Köln?
I think that latter is better...
Again, it depends. Stretched to the limit, one could say that the best solution would be for all trains to call at all stations, making a Berlin-Frankfurt a 80-130 stop in God-knows how many hours.

Adding stops increases total travel time. The ICE Sprinter Frankfurt-Berlin takes 3h53min to complete the journey, without any intermediate stops, while the regular ICEs calling at 7 intermediate stations need at least 4h15min to complete the journes, 22min more (9,6% increase on travel time). And that is still a favorable situation with much of the trip going through dedicated high-speed or upgraded corridors, meaning ICEs with many stops can still retain top-speed for a significant part of their journey.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 06:39 PM   #1072
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Adding stops increases total travel time. The ICE Sprinter Frankfurt-Berlin takes 3h53min to complete the journey, without any intermediate stops, while the regular ICEs calling at 7 intermediate stations need at least 4h15min to complete the journes, 22min more (9,6% increase on travel time).
Adding stops increases travel time, but it also increase the usefullness of a train. You have to balance that. And time en route isn't everything. If I want to travel from Berlin to Frankfurt at 14:00 the ICE sprinter is not the train that will get me to my destination soonest... As I've repeated before: A train that takes 4h15 minutes, and runs every hour is more usefull, and subjectively faster than one that takes 3h50, but only runs twice a day...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 07:12 PM   #1073
kato2k8
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 527
Likes (Received): 106

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
It's not true to say there is a general switch by piggyback trailer operators to 13.6m (45ft) swap body operations within the German/Scandinavian/Alpine/North Italy area.
I've worked in logistics, and 45' swap bodies are virtually non-existant - mostly due to road regulations in Germany limiting tractor-trailer operations to overall vehicle lengths of 54' - can regularly do 40' with that with any tractor, for 45' you need to watch vehicle length closely.

And i'm talking standard TEU shipping containers. The reason for this is that most such freight meant for export will end up loaded on ships anyway. You get swap bodies pretty much only on intra-european routes, and semi-trailers only on end-delivery transport, not the more important routes between distribution centers.
kato2k8 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #1074
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385



Kato, I didn't understand the meaning of your last post.

Are you agreeing with me - because if you read my post again, you'll see that I am saying that there is NOT a switch away from piggyback trailers to swap bodies of the 13.6m (45ft) variety across Germany.

You seem to be saying the same thing as me.

However, you are wrong about the number of 45ft swap bodies. They exist in huge numbers in Europe, and they are to be seen across Germany, but just not in the kind of numbers that they are seen across, for example, France and Italy.

Bear in mind that in this context, a 13.6m swap body is just the same as a 45ft swap body - that is why you see me write the following: 13.6m (45ft).

An well-known operator of a fleet of 13.6m (45ft) swap bodies that you'll see on trains passing though Germany is Fercam, for example.
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 14th, 2011, 07:26 PM   #1075
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21257

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Adding stops increases travel time, but it also increase the usefullness of a train. You have to balance that. And time en route isn't everything. If I want to travel from Berlin to Frankfurt at 14:00 the ICE sprinter is not the train that will get me to my destination soonest... As I've repeated before: A train that takes 4h15 minutes, and runs every hour is more usefull, and subjectively faster than one that takes 3h50, but only runs twice a day...
But you are assuming those were the only options available. Maybe the number of passengers between Berlin and Frankfurt is high enough that they could have 8 ICE Sprinter + 4-6 normal ICE
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 15th, 2011, 08:57 AM   #1076
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
But you are assuming those were the only options available. Maybe the number of passengers between Berlin and Frankfurt is high enough that they could have 8 ICE Sprinter + 4-6 normal ICE
I think that if that were the case we would indeed see more ICE sprinters...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 16th, 2011, 01:19 PM   #1077
Dase
Registered User
 
Dase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Moscow / Berlin
Posts: 514
Likes (Received): 61

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Hi guys,
I would like to get back to the network question. I do think that scrapping 8% of the network is indicative to an overall neglect of railways. the ranking of that EU report (who has in- or decreased their network) and which countries have how much investments into rail infrastructure per capita show the same picture: Spain of course rules and Germany - jugded by the size of its population - is as low as it gets. Thus the much lauded gradual network improvement is nothing but the only thing that can be done with the paultry means at hand.
I didn't find any current numbers, but a few years ago, the German network consisted of ~ 36.000 kilometers while the Spanish one was around 10.000 kilometers which results in a ratio of 0.00044 km of track per inhabitant or 0.1 km/km² in Germany and 0.00021 km track/inhabitant or 0.0198 km track/km² in Spain.

I think these numbers clearly show that the premise is wholly different in Spain than in Germany. While in Germany, all major and minor cities are connected with each other, in Spain whole regions are only minimally served by train services and tangential lines are often non-existant (as strange as it may seem, you have to go all the way back to Madrid from Cartagena if you want to go to Malaga). What Spain does now is catching up with other countries - it's only logical that the investments are rather high and that the newly build tracks in sparsely populated areas are built as high-speed lines. The lines in Germany that have been shut down in Germany during the past 20 years are mainly located in the eastern part and are usually of a very rural type - a type of lines that is non-existant in other western countrys as there they have been shutdown already half a century ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
When the new central station opened, to compensate several minor lines serving the surrounding countryside were scrapped to compensate. It was assumed that anyone who wants to go to Perleberg or other faovrite spots for Berliners to spend the weekend in nature (and mind you, a 3.5 million city produces a lot of leisure traffic), would have a car and should use it to that purpose.
Sorry, but a correlation implies no causality per se. Not a single line has been shut down to compensate for the new central station. It would also not make sense as the costs invloved compare not even remotely. Perleberg btw. is still reachable from Berlin-Spandau hourly; I have no idea how you came up with that example. Btw, it's a city with 12.000 inhabitants in the middle of nowhere - a hourly connection is quite good for that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Overregulation of trains access has as a rule always met with fierce consumer resistance in Germany, and there is no need to antagonize the passengers like in the worst Mehdorn times. Rather, offer a larger number of sprinters, do not suffocate the offer with abhorrent prices, and promote this new system well. I am sure it would work out, and if there were a few less stops in Limburg and Fulda and this slashes travel time by say 30 minutes, many people who have half an eye on the airplane would be attracted to trains.
Agreed.
Dase no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 16th, 2011, 02:17 PM   #1078
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21257

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dase View Post
I didn't find any current numbers, but a few years ago, the German network consisted of ~ 36.000 kilometers while the Spanish one was around 10.000 kilometers which results in a ratio of 0.00044 km of track per inhabitant or 0.1 km/km² in Germany and 0.00021 km track/inhabitant or 0.0198 km track/km² in Spain.

I think these numbers clearly show that the premise is wholly different in Spain than in Germany. While in Germany, all major and minor cities are connected with each other, in Spain whole regions are only minimally served by train services and tangential lines are often non-existant (as strange as it may seem, you have to go all the way back to Madrid from Cartagena if you want to go to Malaga). What Spain does now is catching up with other countries - it's only logical that the investments are rather high and that the newly build tracks in sparsely populated areas are built as high-speed lines. The lines in Germany that have been shut down in Germany during the past 20 years are mainly located in the eastern part and are usually of a very rural type - a type of lines that is non-existant in other western countrys as there they have been shutdown already half a century ago.
Well, Spain population density is far lower in Spain (91 hab km/² [2006] than in Germany 229 hab/km² [2008']). Though one would expect a less populated country to still have more railways/inhabitant to cover territory, it is obvious there is no case for Spain to have a rail network as dense as Germany.

Moreover, the initial design of many Germany railways in the 19th Century was not that bad considering its territory: some old tunnels, more gentle curves etc. The Spanish network was build mostly on cheap (Spain was much more poorer, a broken Empire, by the time it started building railways, whilst Germany was an emerging powerhouse), making it unsuitable for mere upgrades. The political logic of rail building in Spain also dictated the form of its network.

So it only makes senses for a country like Spain to have shed unprofitable tracks that were also impossible to upgrade.



Sorry, but a correlation implies no causality per se. Not a single line has been shut down to compensate for the new central station. It would also not make sense as the costs invloved compare not even remotely. Perleberg btw. is still reachable from Berlin-Spandau hourly; I have no idea how you came up with that example. Btw, it's a city with 12.000 inhabitants in the middle of nowhere - a hourly connection is quite good for that.



Agreed.[/QUOTE]
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 16th, 2011, 03:07 PM   #1079
Dase
Registered User
 
Dase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Moscow / Berlin
Posts: 514
Likes (Received): 61

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Well, Spain population density is far lower in Spain (91 hab km/² [2006] than in Germany 229 hab/km² [2008']). Though one would expect a less populated country to still have more railways/inhabitant to cover territory, it is obvious there is no case for Spain to have a rail network as dense as Germany.
You are totally right, that's why I have added the correlation between inhabitants and railway lines, which is still more than double of what is available in Spain.
Dase no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 21st, 2011, 12:19 AM   #1080
1772
Registered User
 
1772's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,573
Likes (Received): 1439

With Berlins Hauptbahnhof being Europes biggest station; how much bigger is Grand Central Station in NYC?

Which still is the biggest in America, right?
1772 no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium