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Old January 12th, 2012, 05:17 PM   #1221
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Transport is not going to cease its existence in Germany if DB was dismantled and its assets sold, in parts, to different bidders. Germany would only lose the concept of a system operating as a "network", and would have to adjust to new realities (no more trains leaving Frankfurt to Stuttgart every 12 minutes past the hour). But we'd see, likely, lower prices.

A precedent: air transport, once organized in networks with the excuse of the need of central coordination and good use of the public resources sunk on runways, and the need to provide fairness with accessible fares to different parts of the country. And we can all fly nowadays because it is so cheap...
Worked a treat on most of the UK's buses, didn't it?
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Old January 12th, 2012, 08:52 PM   #1222
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Worked a treat on most of the UK's buses, didn't it?
Well, you can get knock down fares in many routes, like London-Glasgow for £ 19 and Manchester-London for £ 9 with advance purchase.

For most people, there are now more offers, better buses and - bingo! - drivers don't strike because they will be promptly replaced.

Only hamlets in the countryside are far worse off like not having reasonable service or losing connections to nearby villages.

Incidentally, when I was in Berlin there were ads for direct buses to HAmburg and Hannover starting € 14.99 each way.
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Old January 13th, 2012, 03:20 PM   #1223
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Incidentally, when I was in Berlin there were ads for direct buses to HAmburg and Hannover starting € 14.99 each way.
And interestingly these buses leave Berlin at 60 min intervals. Now why would that be...
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Old January 13th, 2012, 07:31 PM   #1224
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Well, you can get knock down fares in many routes, like London-Glasgow for £ 19 and Manchester-London for £ 9 with advance purchase.

For most people, there are now more offers, better buses and - bingo! - drivers don't strike because they will be promptly replaced.

Only hamlets in the countryside are far worse off like not having reasonable service or losing connections to nearby villages.

Incidentally, when I was in Berlin there were ads for direct buses to HAmburg and Hannover starting € 14.99 each way.
Well done for deliberately missing the point. Intercity coaches are not the same as buses. Try looking at the enormously higher rate of fare increases versus inflation and ever declining patronage that afflict most British bus operations. Look at places that don't experience this. Most have integrated systems which are much more user friendly and still manage to have new buses.

As for that remark about striking, its rather desperate and complete rubbish. All manner of companies have experienced strikes in Britain, from local operators like Nottingham City Transport to multinationals like FirstGroup. And funnily enough, the services didn't remain shut down for weeks afterwards whilst they replaced their entire staff, not least because that would be illegal.

You appear to have a rather odd world view, in which everybody will benefit from a competition-based utopia which is plainly unachievable and the lower prices etc which will result, whilst at the same time nobody has the right to strike and is basically at the mercy of what their employers will be kind enough to give them, which will mean nobody can afford the services of all these competing businesses. All the while personal freedoms will be somewhat restricted, based essentially on your personal preferences.

Public Transport's primary competitor is the car, not another public transport service. I appreciate you think that public transport services/vehicles are somehow directly comparable to each car on the road in the way that they interact with users and infrastructure, but this is clearly nonsense. Public transport services are generally used and treated as infrastructure in themselves, and function best when co-ordinated. Imagine a world where, when driving somewhere, you had to pay double and wait for half an hour just to turn onto a different road.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 08:59 AM   #1225
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A deconstruction of DB into small networks sold off would actually probably result in regional assemblies (already having planning authority for subsidized local public transport) taking them over or outright buying them up. This usually involves local companies as well. In many cases these would then refocus planning on providing even more stable use tables emphasizing the importance of local public transport, with interregional passenger and freight trains being reduced to use only excess capacity. At premium prices and on the conditions of the regional assembly of course.
Due to the interconnection between public transport planning authority and regional planning as a whole the resulting semi-privatized infrastructure company would also gain a hold over any outside company or agent - including the federation - wanting to build infrastructure through their territory.

At least that's what probably would happen in the richer south and west. In pisspoor east and north we'd probably have a rampage of private companies outbidding each other over the infrastructure blocks until they learn they've overreached and become insolvent, resulting in costsaving measures and the death of any rail infrastructure and services in those areas.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 03:01 PM   #1226
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I was thinking on breaking up the operations, not the infrastructure, would be controlled by a neutral federal agency, allowing whomever pays more for it to use it.
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Old February 5th, 2012, 05:27 AM   #1227
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It´s time for some pictures:

As you might know, Deutsche Bahn awaits the delivery of her first Velaro D highspeed trains. There are 16 trains on order but DB will get most probably one more for free from Siemens because of delivery delays.

Velaro D

Number of trains:
16 (probably 17)
Vmax:
320 km/h
Capacity:
460 passengers
Delivery date:
2012 - 2013
Contract value:
500 Million €uro

___

A Velaro D being fitted out in the Siemens plant in Krefeld.


Velaro D on a test run.
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Old February 5th, 2012, 09:54 AM   #1228
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The initial order was 15 trains (Class 407, if I remember correctly). The 16th has been ordered to replaced an ICE3MF damaged in an incident (one of the 6 Class 406 sets available for Paris-Germany services), and now a 17th has been added.
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Old February 5th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #1229
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what are the chances of the Basel-Schaffhausen line being completely electrified? I know the -border section will be
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Old February 5th, 2012, 05:57 PM   #1230
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Awesome!
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Old February 5th, 2012, 07:44 PM   #1231
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what are the chances of the Basel-Schaffhausen line being completely electrified? I know the -border section will be
The plans are that the full electrification should be completed at the end of 2016.

source:
http://www.suedkurier.de/region/hoch...372623,5271875

It's only a 15km part of the line between Waldshut - Erzingen that is not part of the plans of the Regio S-Bahn Basel or the S-Bahn Schaffhausen. It would have been crazy if they would have decided to not electrify that part of the line.
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Old February 5th, 2012, 07:45 PM   #1232
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what are the chances of the Basel-Schaffhausen line being completely electrified? I know the -border section will be
This railway line is rather lowly ranked on the priority list to say the least. So there is virtually zero chance of fund from Germany. So, unless Switzerland steps in I can't see it being electrified in a foreseeable time.
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Old February 5th, 2012, 08:49 PM   #1233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The initial order was 15 trains (Class 407, if I remember correctly). The 16th has been ordered to replaced an ICE3MF damaged in an incident (one of the 6 Class 406 sets available for Paris-Germany services), and now a 17th has been added.

Correctamundo!
Maybe DB will get even more trains for free if Siemens will have to announce more delivery delays.


Velaro D in action
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Old February 5th, 2012, 11:35 PM   #1234
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Originally Posted by Deadeye Reloaded


Correctamundo!
Maybe DB will get even more trains for free if Siemens will have to announce more delivery delays.

Velaro D in action
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOJVZhhVay4">YouTube Link</a>
Very strange contract arrangement: I delay your order and then, instead of getting fined or a price reduction, I have your order increased!

Non-sense: with delay, DB should get money and put a tender for new units. Maybe Alstom, CAF or andaldoBreda could take those orders.
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Old February 5th, 2012, 11:48 PM   #1235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Very strange contract arrangement: I delay your order and then, instead of getting fined or a price reduction, I have your order increased!

Non-sense: with delay, DB should get money and put a tender for new units. Maybe Alstom, CAF or andaldoBreda could take those orders.

The additional train (the 17th) doesn´t cost DB one €uro. It´s for free. DB gets 17 trains for the price of 16.

Sounds good for me.
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Old February 6th, 2012, 03:21 AM   #1236
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Well, you can get knock down fares in many routes, like London-Glasgow for £ 19 and Manchester-London for £ 9 with advance purchase.

For most people, there are now more offers, better buses and - bingo! - drivers don't strike because they will be promptly replaced.

Only hamlets in the countryside are far worse off like not having reasonable service or losing connections to nearby villages.

Incidentally, when I was in Berlin there were ads for direct buses to HAmburg and Hannover starting € 14.99 each way.
Those are intercity buses. The problems of British local buses are well-documented. Jarrett Walker puts it most succinctly: take the bus that comes!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Very strange contract arrangement: I delay your order and then, instead of getting fined or a price reduction, I have your order increased!

Non-sense: with delay, DB should get money and put a tender for new units. Maybe Alstom, CAF or andaldoBreda could take those orders.
Not remotely strange. In such cases the common practice is for the vendor to compensate with either (a) free equipment or (b) $$$.

IIRC (in the US) SEPTA's two ALP-44s came about because the N-5 order ran late. This is a typical example.
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Old February 6th, 2012, 08:24 AM   #1237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Very strange contract arrangement: I delay your order and then, instead of getting fined or a price reduction, I have your order increased!

Non-sense: with delay, DB should get money and put a tender for new units. Maybe Alstom, CAF or andaldoBreda could take those orders.
As an earlier poster said, DB gets a free Velaro D, personally I wouldn't turn that offer down!

But also, as an aside, I can't believe you're actually suggesting anyone would still place an order with ansaldoBreda, that company is in a terrible state!
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Old February 6th, 2012, 09:37 AM   #1238
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Not remotely strange. In such cases the common practice is for the vendor to compensate with either (a) free equipment or (b) $$$.

IIRC (in the US) SEPTA's two ALP-44s came about because the N-5 order ran late. This is a typical example.
When Siemens (again) was late delivering double deckers for Zürichs' commuters services they delivered an extra set free of charge as compensation.

It is indeed quite common.
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Old February 6th, 2012, 10:15 AM   #1239
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If there is no need for new trains, but one or two more would be useful, then a new tender is dangerous and an agreement like these is better. Having a single or a pair of trains of a different type (in this example, it could be 16 Velaro D and a single TGV) only increases operating costs and complicates management. That's why prototypes and small series of vehicles are usually put out of service before than usual life length of a train.

In the pas, however, when trains were simpler prototype engines lasted longer, like SBB Ae 4/8 single example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_Ae_4/8 (42 years!).
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Old February 6th, 2012, 03:37 PM   #1240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Very strange contract arrangement: I delay your order and then, instead of getting fined or a price reduction, I have your order increased!

Non-sense: with delay, DB should get money and put a tender for new units. Maybe Alstom, CAF or andaldoBreda could take those orders.
Note to self. When Suburbanist comes into my shop offer him something extra for free. He'll decline and then buy something else. Not only that he'll opt for something with absolutely no economies of scale!
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