GERMANY | Railways

[thun]

Competition isn't opposed to network effects.

[MattN]

double post

[MattN]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

If they got out of the business of setting train routes, a periods of controlled chaos would be followed by some market-driven rationalization and unstable market dominance. Probably we'd see trains becoming like airplanes, less perks, less overpaid crew, more newcomers to the market, some "Ryanair of rails"... but ticket prices would likely plummet on more competitive routes where majority of travelers is to be found.

Just like what happened on British buses.

[Stainless]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

I suppose you are old enough to remember the dread times when ICAO and other organizations did that - with air travel - within Europe. All major airlines were state-controlled, and politics got its way to mingle with flights schedules etc.

Trains are not planes. It takes a long time to transfer between planes do to landing and offloading luggage. However it is easy to get off one train and onto another in under 10 mins, so I think a network with some coordination would be beneficial. Within Europe not that many people take connecting flights, especially with economy airlines, as their flights don't meet up or in the case of Ryanair, even allow through ticketing. This is because they cannot guarantee the connection. Trains however are typically more punctual, so they can use this to their advantage and serve more connecting passengers.

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

That is socialistic, Stalinist-style central planning of an entire economic sector by bureaucrats! Not only harmonizing regulations but dictating every single detail of services!

Competition is more important than micro-management and cartelization of international train services.

I suppose you are old enough to remember the dread times when ICAO and other organizations did that - with air travel - within Europe. All major airlines were state-controlled, and politics got its way to mingle with flights schedules etc.

1) politics still mingles itself in flight schedules. A lot even. see the subsidies Ryanair gets. That the deregulated airlines got better at rent seeking is no surprise.
2) railways are very different than airlines. The cost structure is entirely different, and so are the operational constraints. A busy railway corridor cannot operate without the infrastructure manager imposing some order. RRF went to an interval schedule to make competition possible!
3) network effects are more important with trains. When the TGV from Paris to Zürich arrives in Basel there is a train to Bern and Interlaken standing opposite it. This way for almost zero incremental cost the railway manages two add two important destinations to the market served by the Lyria TGV. I find it really rather astonishing that you are against such profit maximizing behavior.
4) cooperation is not socialist. It is human. It is even capitalistic. If you take part in an software ecosystem like for example the iPhone or MS-Windows you have to play by the rules imposed by the leaders of that environment. Apple doesn't want developers operating in the iOS ecosystem to behave in a way that reduces the value to end customers. In the same vein Infrabel, RFF, RFI etc. should make sure that the participants in the railroad ecosystem behave in a way that does not reduce the value of the network to those who in the end have financed it...

If an private company owned a railway line, and it would force the companies running over it to adhere to a schedule, would that be "stalinist"?

[Momo1435]

Is calling a certain policy Stalinist not a kind of economic Godwin's law?

Especially when it's said by someone who on countless occasions has said that governments should spend billions on (high speed) railway lines without looking 1 second at the economic viability. That's also bureaucratic central style planning.

And if you take the airline industry as an example you should also see that next to the increased competition you also see more cooperation between airliners then before the deregulation. Most obvious are the 3 big alliances where the member airlines coordinate their flights and use each others networks to feed the long distance routes. And now we see that several major airlines are actively flirting with the LCCs to cooperate more and combine the LCC market with the feeding market.

So it's not that strange that the big railway companies want to compete on the routes that are most suitable for competition and work together on other routes that are more profitable with cooperation. That's why you see the DB competing with the SNCF on the London route and cooperating on the direct Frankfurt - Marseille trains.

[Deadeye Reloaded]

Originally Posted by KingNick

We're about to build you guys and Italy a freaking long tunnel through the Alps. Now it's your turn to return the favor and besides, it would be nice to have the 1-2-3 concept realized between Vienna and Munich (1 hour to Salzburg, 2 hours to Linz, 3 hours to Vienna).

And we appreciate that you will build this freaking long Brenner base tunnel!

Yesterday our transport minister and your transport minister decided to work closely together on the matter of expanding all the railway lines leading to this tunnel.

For example the line Munich---Rosenheim---Kiefersfelden will be expanded to four tracks.

Signing of the bi-national agreement


More information (in German/Austrian)

[KingNick]

"Nach den derzeitigen Verkehrsprognosen wird eine Umsetzung ab dem Jahr 2030 notwendig."

http://tirol.orf.at/news/stories/2537306

Meaning we won't see any constructions within the next 10 years, but at least we have an official agreement now. On the downside Rosenheim - Salzburg still won't be upgraded. Let's hope the EU will be a generous donor.

Making Kiefersfelden - Munich 4 tracks is also just logical as the whole Alps connection through Austria will be 4 tracks once the BBT is finished.

Overall good news. I tell the boys to get their shovels. We start digging!

[thun]

Originally Posted by KingNick

[Rosenheim - Salzburg still won't be upgraded.

A proposed new corridor Munich-Salzburg would go via Mühldorf in order to unbundle east-west from north-south traffic, see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magistrale_f%C3%BCr_Europa

[KingNick]

That makes sense, but then again Munich - Kiefersfelden would have four tracks, so lots of capacity (two for freight and two for passengers) and you can profit from synergy effects. Instead of building two new lines, you'd just have to build one + the tracks from Rosenheim to Salzburg. Should be less expensive and you would most likely get more money from the EU, as the tracks Munich - Rosenheim cover two TEN lines.

[NordikNerd]

image hosted on flickr


Your travel options in Flensburg, the morning of 12.06.16

Flensburg is also a stop for all the international nighttrains from Copenhagen to Amsterdam,Basel, Berlin, Prague, Cologne, Munich.
image hosted on flickr

[trainrover]

[rakcancer]

wow. cool stuff!

[Nexis]

[Deadeye Reloaded]

Breathtaking stuff!
Thanks for sharing!

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

In other news:

Siemens keeps its glorious traditions alive and fails one more time to deliver the new ICE high-speed trains on time.

Deutsche Bahn angry over Siemens' failure to deliver

Deutsche Bahn has voiced its disappointment over engineering giant Siemens' renewed failure to deliver high-speed trains in time for the winter schedule. The railway operator fears customer dissatisfaction.



Customers of Germany's Deutsche Bahn (DB) frequently have to put up with delays while traveling. But now the railway operator has itself been forced into waiting mode as ordered trains cannot be delivered in time.

German engineering company Siemens confirmed on Thursday that it would be unable to deliver eight urgently needed high-speed trains for Deutsche Bahn to use during its winter schedule operations starting on December 9.

"The reason for the delay is problems with the train control system that have become obvious during test runs," Siemens said in a statement, not specifying when the outstanding trains would eventually be handed over to DB.

Never-ending story?

Deutsche Bahn said it was upset about the renewed delay.

"We're very disappointed and angry about the fact that we'll once again not be in a position to have a bigger reserve of high-speed trains for our customers during the winter season," DB commented.

Originally, the rail operator was to get 16 ICE high-speed trains from Siemens in December of last year, but technical problems made a delivery impossible. Back in September, Siemens promised to supply at least eight of those trains before the end of 2012.

The Munich-based firm said on Thursday all sides concerned were working feverishly to resolve all outstanding control unit issues. It added that independently of that, three trains had been provided to DB for training purposes.

hg/mz (dpa, Reuters)

22.11.2012

Siemens Slip
Slow-Downs for High-Speed Rail in Germany

German rail operator Deutsche Bahn on Thursday warned of yet another winter full of delays and cancellations because it still hasn't taken delivery of new high-speed ICE trains ordered from Siemens in 2008. The opening of the high-speed route from Frankfurt to London has been pushed back as well.



For many German train passengers, it has become just another part of winter. As soon as the weather begins to get cold, train delays on both local and long-distance routes start adding up. Last winter was particularly bad, because national rail operator Deutsche Bahn had too few trains in reserve to replace those in need of repair.

This year, Deutsche Bahn announced on Thursday, the situation isn't likely to be much better. Long delays and even cancellations can be expected as the temperatures drop. The culprit, according to the company, is the German engineering group Siemens. Despite having waited years for an order for additional high-speed ICE trains, Deutsche Bahn still hasn't taken delivery, leading to insufficient reserve capacity at a time of near record passenger numbers.

"Our customers feel as though they have been left in the lurch by Siemens," said Berthold Huber, head of the German rail's long-distance service, on Thursday. "We had fully expected to have the new trains in reserve this winter to compensate for cancellations as a result of extreme weather."

"You must remember that we ordered the trains in December 2008 and delivery was originally promised for last December," he added.

German Transport Minister Peter Ramsauer is "furious" about the additional delivery delays, his spokesman Sebastian Rudolph said on Thursday.

Delays on London-Frankfurt Route

The latest delay comes just weeks before the first of a total of 16 new ICE 3 trains, worth €500 million ($640 million) were set to hit the rails. But Deutsche Bahn found software problems during testing and Siemens said on Thursday that no new start date had been set. In a statement on its website, Siemens noted that "everyone involved is working hard to solve the problems that have appeared."

The delay also endangers the start of a planned high-speed rail link from Frankfurt to London. The new trains are to complete the 640-kilometer (400-mile) route between the two financial centers in just five hours. But now, instead of inaugurating the route in 2013 as originally planned, Deutsche Bahn said on Thursday that it has been pushed back to 2016.

It remains to be seen, however, whether German rail passengers are prepared to accept Deutsche Bahn's explanation for the likely delays ahead. Last winter, a cold snap stranded thousands of passengers in the days before Christmas, leading to Deutsche Bahn's warning that travellers should avoid train travel if possible -- a move which led to much hand-wringing around Germany. And the company's summer record hasn't been much better in recent years. ICE air conditioning systems have demonstrated a penchant for malfunctioning in hot weather, leading to overheated passengers and yet more delays.

Voker Kefer, German rail technical director, criticized Siemens' reliability on Thursday. "For solid resource scheduling when it comes to our vehicle fleet, we desperately need greater dependability on the part of producers," he said. It's a plea likely to make Deutsche Bahn customers nod their heads in agreement.

cgh -- with wire reports

[Suburbanist]

Good news coming from DB: most ICE trains will have seat maps uploaded on the reservation online module, allowing you to book a specific seat on a specific position withing a specific carriage.

[MarcVD]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Good news coming from DB: most ICE trains will have seat maps uploaded on the reservation online module, allowing you to book a specific seat on a specific position withing a specific carriage.

This was already possible before... I have made many ICE3 reservations
specifically asking to have a seat in the "panoramic lounge" just behind
the driver. You just need to know the coach and seat number you want.
The reservation agents at the counter in Brussels Midi will gladly please
you if the seat you ask for is still free. The site www.seat61.com gives
the seat layout for most of the trains running in Germany.

[Deadeye Reloaded]

The new Katzenberg tunnel on the Karlsruhe–Basel high speed line was opened 11 days ago!

Length: 9385 m
Tubes: 2
Costs: 610 million €uro
Vmax: 250 km/h
Construction time: 2003 - 2012

[Sunfuns]

I naively thought that this would lead to faster ICE trips from Basel to Freiburg. It does not...

[LtBk]

Why is that?