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Old June 8th, 2012, 07:02 AM   #1421
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In the 80ies you could leave Hamburg for Basel every hour, and always have the same time en route. Nowadays this is no longer the case. The lack of integration leads to quite long layovers at times, which is inefficient.
A Basel-Hamburg trip is not a commuting one. Any reasonable person should be EXPECTED to plan in advance for a journey like this, as just not counting on showing up and catching next train as if it were a subway!

For sake, Germany is not Switzerland. It's 5 times bigger, it has areas with very different ditribution profiles (compare Brandenburg with Anschalt with NRW with Bayern...)
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Old June 8th, 2012, 09:07 AM   #1422
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A Basel-Hamburg trip is not a commuting one. Any reasonable person should be EXPECTED to plan in advance for a journey like this, as just not counting on showing up and catching next train as if it were a subway!
This is not about being able to turn up when you want.
This is about maximizing the value of your product.
It's about not forcing people to plan their day around their travel. If I have a meeting that ends at 16:00 I don't want to have wait till 18:24 for my next train home. In the IC79 timetable there existed hourly departures. There are still hourly trains on all parts of the route, but because the arrivals and departures aren't any longer coordinated in the main hubs their usefulness has been reduced.
It's about integration. Having a good network maximizes the value of the whole chain.
It's also about maximising the value of the infrastructure.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 09:09 AM   #1423
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But, if you have the time, money and expertise and think there's a market for a certain train, you can set up your own train operating company and run it. That's what HKX does, too.
The problem is that your potential for making money depends on the value of your offering. And the value of a network increases with the square of the number of points you connect. If you start with just a few trains you are still a long way from offering anything approaching that what DB offers, and could even offer...
Integration is key. Something even RENFE is starting to discover, it appears...
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Old June 8th, 2012, 09:16 AM   #1424
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
This is not about being able to turn up when you want.
This is about maximizing the value of your product.
It's about not forcing people to plan their day around their travel. If I have a meeting that ends at 16:00 I don't want to have wait till 18:24 for my next train home. In the IC79 timetable there existed hourly departures. There are still hourly trains on all parts of the route, but because the arrivals and departures aren't any longer coordinated in the main hubs their usefulness has been reduced.
It's about integration. Having a good network maximizes the value of the whole chain.
It's also about maximising the value of the infrastructure.
Any trip that doesn't have departures as frequent as 6 per hour requires some timetable checking.

YOU (and a few nich people) probably think it is better to spend 8h in a train than depart 1h30 later and travel only for 5h30.

There is no point in having fixed routes or station service categories when your demand varies along the day/week/season.

Switzerland might get away with it. Germany doesn't.

You fantasy of having hourly departures from Sevilla to Ümea would obviously put a cripple on direct trips where they are warranted, and kill any peak-only direct commuter service.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 12:17 PM   #1425
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You fantasy of having hourly departures from Sevilla to Ümea would obviously put a cripple on direct trips where they are warranted, and kill any peak-only direct commuter service.
And again you show how fortunate we are to live in a world where you are not involved in the operation of railways...
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Old June 8th, 2012, 02:53 PM   #1426
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
It's no longer that well integrated, not like it used to be.

In the 80ies you could leave Hamburg for Basel every hour, and always have the same time en route. Nowadays this is no longer the case. The lack of integration leads to quite long layovers at times, which is inefficient.

For that reason rail advocacy groups in Germany want an integral, coordinated interval timetable for the whole country:
http://www.deutschland-takt.de/
An interval timetable doesn't have to be integrated. And that's what we have and what we can afford.
A wholly integrated Deutschland-Takt, however, requires enormous amounts of investment. But the funds for railways in this country are barely enough to keep up current services. The whole idea of a Deutschland-Takt is therefore a pipe dream.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 03:17 PM   #1427
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An interval timetable doesn't have to be integrated. And that's what we have and what we can afford.
A wholly integrated Deutschland-Takt, however, requires enormous amounts of investment. But the funds for railways in this country are barely enough to keep up current services. The whole idea of a Deutschland-Takt is therefore a pipe dream.
Germany has a lot of international traffic with Netherlands, France, Switzerland, Austria, reasonable traffic with Poland and Belgium and not that minor traffic with Luxembourg and Czech Rep.

It would have to tweak its whole network or just ditch high-speed line project for the sake of unnecessary integration.

Again, people don't travel Garmisch-Parternkirchen - Emden as a day trip. Makes no sense to adopt a "build to schedule" philosophy in German when you have three 5 major populational areas (Rhur connurbation, Frankfurt, München, Berlin, Hamburg (+ Hannover partially)).
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Old June 8th, 2012, 04:03 PM   #1428
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
An interval timetable doesn't have to be integrated. And that's what we have and what we can afford.
A wholly integrated Deutschland-Takt, however, requires enormous amounts of investment. But the funds for railways in this country are barely enough to keep up current services. The whole idea of a Deutschland-Takt is therefore a pipe dream.
And that's rather unfortunate, isn't it. Imagine being able to make the whole network an order of magnitude more usefull at just a relatively small incremental cost. Capitalists usually love things like that, but they've fallen a bit out of favor recently. Maybe that's why it's indeed going to remain a pipe dream.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 04:10 PM   #1429
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Again, people don't travel Garmisch-Parternkirchen - Emden as a day trip. Makes no sense to adopt a "build to schedule" philosophy in German when you have three 5 major populational areas (Rhur connurbation, Frankfurt, München, Berlin, Hamburg (+ Hannover partially)).
"Build to schedule" makes a lot of sense, since it allows you to save costs without sacrificing value.

Look at how private companies in Japan do it...
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Old June 8th, 2012, 06:59 PM   #1430
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Germany is not Japan. Germany is not Switzerland. Germany is not Netherlands.

The DB lines are not a giant subway/metro train system.
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Old June 8th, 2012, 10:06 PM   #1431
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Does Germany have plans for upgraded or even HSR train lines to Czech Republic and Poland?
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Old June 9th, 2012, 12:16 PM   #1432
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The line from Berlin to the Polish border at Frankfurt (Oder) is now being upgraded to 160 km/h. It's not that a big of an upgrade and it takes ages to be completed (Wiki says the completion date has slipped from 2013 to 2020).

As for the Czech Republic, there are studies being done for a 300 km/h High Speed Line from Dresden to Prague. No decision has been made on the line, but the DB has said that it won't be completed before 2030. In Germany this will connect to the for 200 km/h upgraded Berlin - Dresden line, this should be completed somewhere at the end of this decade (there's no official target completion date).

Another project to the Czech Republic is studied, the 200km/h upgrade of the Regensburg–Pilsen line for a better connection between Bavaria and Prague. Again it's just a study and no time frame has been given, other that a decision won't be expected before 2015.
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Old June 9th, 2012, 02:05 PM   #1433
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
And that's rather unfortunate, isn't it. Imagine being able to make the whole network an order of magnitude more usefull at just a relatively small incremental cost.
Small funds just won't be enough. Switzerland spend billions of francs to prepare its rail network for integrated rail services. So Germany had to spend tens of billions of euros to do the same. That's huge amounts of money for relatively small gains.
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Old June 10th, 2012, 11:43 AM   #1434
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Does Germany have plans for upgraded or even HSR train lines to Czech Republic and Poland?
I think that in our current stage lines are not the biggest obstacle here, but the small amount of frequencies.

Wrocław-Berlin has only 1 train per day in each direction, that's far too few so that it is not very useful. If they could make 3 trains per day it would be way more useful.

Wrocław-Dresden has 3 trains per day which is the bare minimum to be useful.

Warsaw-Poznan-Berlin probably has many trains per day, so here things are ok.

Sadly they seam to have given up on trains from Prague to Nurenberg. It was cancelled and that was quite useful for going from Wrocław to Munich. Prague-Munich probably still runs, but if it does it is in a not reasonable frequency or too slow because it didn't appear in my DB search for Wroclaw-Munich some time ago ... DB recommended taking the bus from Prague to Munich instead!
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Old June 10th, 2012, 05:11 PM   #1435
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Small funds just won't be enough. Switzerland spend billions of francs to prepare its rail network for integrated rail services. So Germany had to spend tens of billions of euros to do the same. That's huge amounts of money for relatively small gains.
Germany spends billions on completely useless projects. I guess that makes it harder to spend billions on useful stuff.
And lots of small gains add up in the end. Don't forget who your competition is. You don't have to wait two hours for your car. Even if it is to drive to the other side of the country. Neither should you have to wait long for a train.
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Old June 10th, 2012, 05:30 PM   #1436
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Sadly, while Germoney is slow enough to develop HSR for internal services and for international services mostly relies on the attractivity of the lines already built in France or other countries, it has all but given up on HSR to its eastern neighbors, i.e. Poland, Czech R., and even Austria. The dismal state of connections shown above however does not mean that any kind of connections would not be demanded. Obviously, when trains are slower than cars or even buses, services will be less frequent. DB now runs buses to Prague, but the private ALEX trains still run Munich-Prague. The German side even refuses to dedicate itself to an upgrade of Munich-Salzburg or Munich-Innsbruck. The Merkel government is, even more than its predecessors, a slave to the car industry.
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Old June 10th, 2012, 07:19 PM   #1437
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a slave to the car industry.
i dont think even german railway enthusiasts comprehend the extent to which their car companies have shat all over their railways..
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Old June 10th, 2012, 09:41 PM   #1438
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i dont think even german railway enthusiasts comprehend the extent to which their car companies have shat all over their railways..
No, I don't comprehend. Please explain...
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Old June 10th, 2012, 11:24 PM   #1439
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Germany spends billions on completely useless projects. I guess that makes it harder to spend billions on useful stuff.
And lots of small gains add up in the end. Don't forget who your competition is. You don't have to wait two hours for your car. Even if it is to drive to the other side of the country. Neither should you have to wait long for a train.
Again, you apply the flawed Swiss paradimg to any other country in the World! I assume your major complaint about train services in Western US is that they don't have a every-15 departure for a Salt Lake City - Denver train...

German is spending a lot of money on interesting infrastructure such as HSR in sectors of the route München-Berlin.

Nobody travels on that rout "on the whim". Many people will fly.

When distances are long, such as several hundred kms, time you save en-route can compensate to reduced frequency. You just wait one extra hour at a station instead of remaining seated one extra hour en-route and having trains every 30min instead of every 2 hours. OF course, any people with QI > 80 will just check departure times.

I bet you are pretty much against every single high-speed line built in Europe and maybe thing the train+ferry scheme in Calais was better than the Eurotunel if only they had more trains in Northern England with timed transfers for routes nobody cares about.
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Old June 11th, 2012, 09:14 AM   #1440
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Again, you apply the flawed Swiss paradimg to any other country in the World!
Once again you demonstrate how little you know (or care).

If the "Swiss Paradigm" is flawed, then why are rail advocates in other countries so eager to see it adopted? (BTW, it's not "Swiss" at all, the Dutch were first).

Quote:
I assume your major complaint about train services in Western US is that they don't have a every-15 departure for a Salt Lake City - Denver train...
I don't complain about train services in the Western US. That I leave to the people living there. However I do see that there is a Tokyo - Hiroshima train every 20 minutes. So some railways (and this is a private company) do seem to think that there is a point to high frequency service over long distance.


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Nobody travels on that rout "on the whim". Many people will fly.
Nobody travels that "on a whim". But I asume that you are amongst that tiny minority that has never had a meeting run out?



Quote:
When distances are long, such as several hundred kms, time you save en-route can compensate to reduced frequency. You just wait one extra hour at a station instead of remaining seated one extra hour en-route and having trains every 30min instead of every 2 hours. OF course, any people with QI > 80 will just check departure times.
Most people prefer spending time on a train rather than on a station. That is an established fact that of course cannot be true because it doesn't fit your worldview...
And yes, people will check departure times. And many people will see "oh, there is only a train every other hour" and choose to drive in stead. You've just lost another customer. A train every hour is the minimum if you want to get people out of their cars. Really.

What I am pointing out here is that DB runs hourly from Hamburg to Frankfurt, and hourly from Frankfurt to Basel, and also hourly from Frankfurt to many other places.
If they would coordinate their schedules better they could offer hourly connections on a lot more city pairs, without having to spend a lot on infrastructure and without having to run many more trains. That would create more value and get you more customers.
And making more value means making more money. You seem to be in favor of that, but apparently only as long as it doesn't involve improving the product...

Quote:
I bet you are pretty much against every single high-speed line built in Europe and maybe thing the train+ferry scheme in Calais was better than the Eurotunel if only they had more trains in Northern England with timed transfers for routes nobody cares about.
I'm not against every high speed route. I however think the HSL-Zuid was a mistake. I am in favor of running a railroad as a network. I also am in favor of the state managing the tax payer's money in a prudent way, so infrastructure that is paid for by taxes must be planned to maximize value returned to the tax payer.
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