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Old December 15th, 2012, 10:31 PM   #1501
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Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Basel SBB (not Bad) is even less then the 15 minutes on the shorter Karlsruhe and Freiburg section.
Will there be any development inside Basel?
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Old December 15th, 2012, 10:33 PM   #1502
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The time saving between Karslruhe and Basel after the completion of the whole line will be 30 minutes. So 15 minutes between Offenburg and Basel SBB (not Bad) is even less then the 15 minutes on the shorter Karlsruhe and Freiburg section.
I don't see how anything could be saved in an urban environment between those two stations (a new bridge over Rhine has been completed recently, though) so any further savings would still have to be in Germany.

There is a long range plan to build a tunnel between Basel SBB and Basel Bad with an intermediate station under the downtown. I don't think there is currently any funding for it (won't be cheap)
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Old December 15th, 2012, 10:55 PM   #1503
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This tunnel ("Herzstuck Basel") would likely be for S-Bahn trains only.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 10:57 PM   #1504
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Frankfurt-Basel is definitively a corridor that merited a full high-speed solution, which would fit nicely with the already completed Frankfurt-Koeln HSR.

Instead, we got a patchwork of improvements and 4-tracking.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 11:02 PM   #1505
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
This tunnel ("Herzstuck Basel") would likely be for S-Bahn trains only.
You think ICE's would still have to take the much longer (I assume) surface route? Freight trains probably wouldn't be allowed there at all so plenty of capacity for all kinds of passenger trains.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 11:04 PM   #1506
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Frankfurt-Basel is definitively a corridor that merited a full high-speed solution, which would fit nicely with the already completed Frankfurt-Koeln HSR.

Instead, we got a patchwork of improvements and 4-tracking.
It might have happened if the planning was done today, but I believe the plan was agreed on close to 20 years ago. Germans just have been particularly slow to finish the works. Now upgrading it even further doesn't make financial sense.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 11:26 PM   #1507
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You think ICE's would still have to take the much longer (I assume) surface route? Freight trains probably wouldn't be allowed there at all so plenty of capacity for all kinds of passenger trains.
It depends of how this tunnel will be built and how many S-Bahn trains have to use it. I haven't heard of plans to run long distance trains into it, but who knows? Zürich's second S-Bahn tunnel will also be used by long distance trains, so...we will see.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 11:30 PM   #1508
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
It depends of how this tunnel will be built and how many S-Bahn trains have to use it. I haven't heard of plans to run long distance trains into it, but who knows? Zürich's second S-Bahn tunnel will also be used by long distance trains, so...we will see.
I suspect it will take a very long time to see it

Basel is quite a bit smaller than Zurich and the only long distance trains which would need the tunnel would be those to Germany.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 11:29 AM   #1509
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I don't see how anything could be saved in an urban environment between those two stations (a new bridge over Rhine has been completed recently, though) so any further savings would still have to be in Germany.
Because the speed is so low a small increase can save 1 minute. The Regio S-Bahn (5 min) is already a minute faster then the ICEs, so that is easily possible.

And every minute counts, even shortening the stopping time from 4 to 2 minutes on Basel Bad could be a big part of the 15 minutes saving. They will present the saving as could as possible, so this could be part of it.


With the current plans the new Tunnel in Basel «Herzstück Regio-S-Bahn» won't be interesting for long distance trains to and from the North because it will approach Basel Bad from the North. But It could be interesting if all the trains from Hochrheinbahn continue to Basel SBB using the tunnel. Then there won't be any reason for the long distance trains to stop in Bad, saving another couple of minutes.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 11:50 AM   #1510
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And every minute counts, even shortening the stopping time from 4 to 2 minutes on Basel Bad could be a big part of the 15 minutes saving. They will present the saving as could as possible, so this could be part of it.
Reducing a few minuts not always leads to an improvement. Currently the ICEs arrive in Basel at x:47... making that a few minutes earlier only saves time for people who habe Basel as their final destination. However, most of the people on those trains have destinations further in Switzerland.
If you could however cut 20 minutes then every place in Switzerland is suddenly half an hour closer...

At the moment the Katzenberg tunnel is not used to speed up the ICE service, the extra minutes are just used as recovery time. The main issue is that the trains have to slow down considerable at each end to join the old line. In the future the high speed tracks will be extended though, and then we will see schedule improvements.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 11:56 AM   #1511
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Frankfurt-Basel is definitively a corridor that merited a full high-speed solution, which would fit nicely with the already completed Frankfurt-Koeln HSR.

Instead, we got a patchwork of improvements and 4-tracking.
There is more need for a Frankfurt - Mannheim high speed line than for a Frankfurt - Basel line. So any dedicated line would have had to go via Mannheim (And Karlsruhe) anyway. And the German approach of increasing the speed of the existing network in stead of building a new one is better suited to the Distributed nature of Germany. Most rail travel starts at an S-Bahn or Regional train station so speeding those trains up does yield faster travel for more people.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 01:39 PM   #1512
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Incredible how you always twist the facts as if no one, ever, traveled between the key points of the German networks as their initial and final origin, or as if stand-alone relations between big and busy stations were totally irrelevant as long as some local train in some backwater is well integrated in the network.
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Old December 16th, 2012, 03:32 PM   #1513
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Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
With the current plans the new Tunnel in Basel «Herzstück Regio-S-Bahn» won't be interesting for long distance trains to and from the North because it will approach Basel Bad from the North. But It could be interesting if all the trains from Hochrheinbahn continue to Basel SBB using the tunnel. Then there won't be any reason for the long distance trains to stop in Bad, saving another couple of minutes.
In this case it would be more efficient to leave out Basel SBB altogether and to call at Badischer Bf only.

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And the German approach of increasing the speed of the existing network in stead of building a new one is better suited to the Distributed nature of Germany. Most rail travel starts at an S-Bahn or Regional train station so speeding those trains up does yield faster travel for more people.
You may repeat the bollocks of beneficial accelerating of local services al over again it just won't become true. These stopping services have next to no speed-up potentials as their stops are far too closely spaced. Significant time-savings have only been achieved by new railway lines as well as raised top-speeds for long-distance services.
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Last edited by flierfy; December 16th, 2012 at 05:57 PM.
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Old December 17th, 2012, 07:14 AM   #1514
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In this case it would be more efficient to leave out Basel SBB altogether and to call at Badischer Bf only.
No, you have it in fact completely the wrong way round. If most people on the ICEs are (as you implicitly accept) bound for other destinations in Switzerland it is very important that those trains call at Basel SBB, as that is where the trains to other parts of Switzerland leave from. Terminating the train at Basel Bad. Bf. will increase travel times quite substantially.

Quote:
You may repeat the bollocks of beneficial accelerating of local services al over again it just won't become true. These stopping services have next to no speed-up potentials as their stops are far too closely spaced. Significant time-savings have only been achieved by new railway lines as well as raised top-speeds for long-distance services.
Don't underestimate the potential. But the main point is that upgrading the existing network keeps it integrated. Building a completely new network that is not integrated with the old one means that a lot of the time gained on the new network is lost again during the transfers between the old and the new.
A classic example is Avignon in France, where anybody who has a destination somewhere other than Avignon itself will a lot of the time gained on the HSL during the transfer from Avignon TGV to Avignon Ville, and the wait for a local there.
In fact for trips that involve for example a local to Lyon, a TGV from Lyon to Avignon, and a local from Avignon again the time gained by the TGV is usually negligible.
Now the French approach will work in France, because there the railway's purpose is to transport Parisians. Germany is different, and far more multi centric.
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Old December 17th, 2012, 07:18 AM   #1515
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Incredible how you always twist the facts as if no one, ever, traveled between the key points of the German networks as their initial and final origin, or as if stand-alone relations between big and busy stations were totally irrelevant as long as some local train in some backwater is well integrated in the network.
I am in no ware stating what you are implying here. You are the one twisting the facts. What I am stating should be quite obvious. Or do you really believe that the majority of the people on German trains somehow all live near main stations?
The "key points" on the route from Frankfurt to Basel are Mannheim and Karlsruhe. It makes no sense whatsoever to build new infrastructure that would bypass those key points. Given those constraints, what the Germans are planning and building right now, a new line from Frankfurt to Mannheim, and quadrupling Mannheim to Basel makes a lot of sense.
What should they build in stead in your opinion?
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Old December 17th, 2012, 10:38 AM   #1516
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No, you have it in fact completely the wrong way round. If most people on the ICEs are (as you implicitly accept) bound for other destinations in Switzerland it is very important that those trains call at Basel SBB, as that is where the trains to other parts of Switzerland leave from. Terminating the train at Basel Bad. Bf. will increase travel times quite substantially.
I suppose that firefly is proposing to skip Basel SBB going directly from Basel Bad to Zürich or whatever. It might be nice from a theoretical point of view, however the Hauenstein line (Basel-Olten) is nearing capacity at 400 trains per day so international trains have to sue an existing slot, replacing an IC.

I'm sure someone will propose the usual "solutions"...
1) cancelling 3 or 4 trains to allow a single faster train
2) building a new line

But...
1) damaging 1000/1500 people just to short travel time to other 200-300 people is stupid
2) that's the favourite answer of Suburbanist, and while I agree it would be useful, as usual he would not tell us how to pay it...

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A classic example is Avignon in France, where anybody who has a destination somewhere other than Avignon itself will a lot of the time gained on the HSL during the transfer from Avignon TGV to Avignon Ville, and the wait for a local there.
SNCF is build a conventional line to Avignon TGV, so as regional trains will be able tor each it from Avignon Ville. They call it "la virgule d'Avignon" ("the comma of Avignon").
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Old December 17th, 2012, 11:03 AM   #1517
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I suppose that firefly is proposing to skip Basel SBB going directly from Basel Bad to Zürich or whatever.
The other thing is that if you go left after crossing the Rhine you end up in the Pratteln Freight yard. That route isn't really set up for passenger trains...
There used to be one trains that did this, the CNL to Milano, which in Switzerland only called at Lugano. This train was probably routed in a freight slot over the Bözberg route to the Gotthard. That is not how you want to run a fast train though.

Quote:
SNCF is build a conventional line to Avignon TGV, so as regional trains will be able tor each it from Avignon Ville. They call it "la virgule d'Avignon" ("the comma of Avignon").
Finally...
However I never understood why they didn't build the TGV station a few 100m further to the East, where it crosses the existing main line...
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Old December 17th, 2012, 12:27 PM   #1518
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A new high-speed line Basel Hbf-Mannheim + a high-speed spur that connecting this line with the LGV NW of Strasbourg.
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Old December 17th, 2012, 12:41 PM   #1519
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A new high-speed line Basel Hbf-Mannheim + a high-speed spur that connecting this line with the LGV NW of Strasbourg.
At the moment quite a few sections of the line already allow 250kph. There is a new line planned around Freiburg, and once all the works are completed travelling Mannheim - Basel at 250 kph will be possible.
A separate HSL will cost a lot of money, but will not bring that much time gain. And I doubt there is much of a market for a train that doesn't stop between Basel and Mannheim.
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Old December 17th, 2012, 12:43 PM   #1520
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There used to be one trains that did this, the CNL to Milano, which in Switzerland only called at Lugano. This train was probably routed in a freight slot over the Bözberg route to the Gotthard. That is not how you want to run a fast train though.
It called also in Chiasso and Bellinzona, and I used it a few times. It left Milano Centrale at 21.10, and has been replaced by the A9 motorway.

It ran via Wohlen, and probably the Bözberg.

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However I never understood why they didn't build the TGV station a few 100m further to the East, where it crosses the existing main line...
I'm sure you understood why

It's the famous "gare des betteraves" style, but it's off topic speaking about it here.
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