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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:17 PM   #1561
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
If you speed up a line enough that it is VERY fast, even connections requiring some back-tracking to the few key high-speed stations are also sped up.
It is however very inefficient, as the railway company is now transporting some passengers along the same route twice.
You don't want this on a crowded network.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 03:43 PM   #1562
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It is however very inefficient, as the railway company is now transporting some passengers along the same route twice.
You don't want this on a crowded network.
If your goal is minimizing "passenger kilometres" you might make the connections at the previous station convenient, and at the following station inconvenient. I. e. when you mix express and milk trains on the same route, schedule the milk train in the same direction to be passed by the express train shortly before the express train stops - then, the passengers who got off at the express station can shortly get on the milk train. Although this only provides for one direction connectors, not the opposite - it should be better to schedule milk trains and express trains to stop TOGETHER. Then again, you might design the stations so that connection to a train in the same direction is convenient - walking across a platform - but a connection to a train in opposite direction inconvenient - crossing the tracks beneath or above them.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 06:55 PM   #1563
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That TGV that stops in Kaiserslautern also stops in Forbach. The ICEs on that route however don't. I wonder why.
Now you're confusing things. Certain trains - such as the morning train on Sundays - stop in Forbach. Others don't. Every train stops in K'lautern.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 10:31 PM   #1564
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If you speed up a line enough that it is VERY fast, even connections requiring some back-tracking to the few key high-speed stations are also sped up. (...)
True, but that directly leads back to my initial point: This is possible in Italy where a lot of traffic was/is concentrated on the few North-South corridors which aren't even that far apart that one would need to take huge detours. That's certainly not the case in Germany, hence speeding up only one line doesn't create that much benefit (if you look at all of your customers).
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Old December 19th, 2012, 11:03 PM   #1565
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Wouldn't you say that a "circle"Berlin-Hannover-Rhürhghbeit-Frankfurt-Stuttgart-München - Leipzig/Dresden - Berlin is a good alignment to start with?
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Old December 19th, 2012, 11:06 PM   #1566
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Kaiserslautern is not a big place, but it could be important for those who need to change trains (e.g. to go to Koblenz? Or Homburg?).
That interconnection is at Saarbrücken, from where well-used RE lines connect on to Koblenz, Trier and Luxembourg.

Kaiserslautern is the interconnection hub for Western Palatinate, a semi-rural agglomeration area with about half a million people. Rather comparable to Kassel in its function. However, K-Town also has the particular function of basically being a US exclave, with about 50,000 soldiers and dependents of USAFE and USAREUR living in the immediate area.

Rhealys also functions as a fast regional sprinter connection to Mannheim and Saarbrücken for Kaiserslautern. It's supplanted by RE trains filling up that route to a one-hour interval.
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Old December 19th, 2012, 11:26 PM   #1567
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Would it have been possible to build a pure-HSL with no connection to the existing network?
In terms of infrastructure, yes, sure; but it would have been a segregated HS network (as the Italian one), useless in terms of non-HS traffic.
We don't need a disconnected railway but one which allows high-speed travel over several hundreds of kilometres.

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Your job is now to find two corridors that cover a large enough proportion of the German population so that the investment you propose is justified...
So: Which two corridors?
Köln-München via Frankfurt/M and Stuttgart
Hamburg-Frankfurt/M via Hannover

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And in Italy quite a bit of the gains you make on the high speed lines are lost again the moment you want to be somewhere else than near the main railway terminal. Just look at Milano, where most urban railway lines don't even come in Centrale.
Not is simply not true. Milano Centrale is served by tram and Underground services which offer frequent and quick links within the city. Milano Centrale is also a hub for regional mainline services.

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Kassel is a about the size of Florence... And don't forget that because of the good integration with the rest of the network those stops serve a larger area than just the town.
These two cities are nowhere near the same. Neither in size nor in importance. Firenze has twice the population of Kassel and is just as connected to its surrounding region as Kassel is.

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Germany has a different urban structure. The largest urban area is not a city, but a region, the Ruhr Region. It is impossible to serve a place like that with just a single main station (where would you put it?). The German railway network doesn't just serve points, it has to serve areas.
You completely misjudge the travel desire which arises from the population distribution in Germany. The existence of towns and villages throughout the whole country does precisely not eliminate the need of time-saving links between the big cities.

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But the large cities in Germany are already closer together than the large cities in France. France is a much bigger country...
France is of course a much bigger country. It even spreads over several continents. The distances in Metropolitan France, however, are not too dissimilar to those in Germany. The distances from München to Köln, Hamburg and Berlin are way too long as if rail transport could gain a significant mode share without the investment in long continuous HSLs.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 12:59 AM   #1568
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Not is simply not true. Milano Centrale is served by tram and Underground services which offer frequent and quick links within the city. Milano Centrale is also a hub for regional mainline services.
You didn't get the point and hence are wrong.
The terminus for about half of Lombardy is Porta Garibaldi, which quite frankly is a pain in the *** if you want change from long-distance to one of those regional services. The fact that some (not all!) Eurostars end there, too, make the situation even worse as you can't simply change from other long-distance trains calling at Centrale to those. It gets even worse as several regional lines (and most Malpensa Express airport links) end at a third station (Cadorna) and some chosen fews in the middle of nowhere (Porta Genova).
Although much better than Paris or London (mainly because all four stations are served by one metro line), the Milan hub is far from being perfectly integrated.

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The distances in Metropolitan France, however, are not too dissimilar to those in Germany. The distances from München to Köln, Hamburg and Berlin are way too long as if rail transport could gain a significant mode share without the investment in long continuous HSLs.
You do get the fundamental differences between a monocentric and a polycentric network, don't you? The fact alone that distances might be comparable do not indicate that traffic volume and time savings could be comparable. In fact, a monocentric network in itself allows speeding up traffic better than a polycentric network. Not to speak about higher traffic volume on individual corridors which justifiy higher investments (e.g. in a HSL) than on corridors of similar length in a polycentric network.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 01:05 AM   #1569
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Making Germany a bit more Berlin-centered wouldn't be a bad thing, though that would go far beyond transportation (it would involve pulling the financial institutions from Frankfurt to Berlin, for instance)
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Old December 20th, 2012, 04:40 AM   #1570
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On a slightly different topic: we're talking a lot about speeding up lines, while I use to think about city knots.
I'm always surprised as a major transit hub as Frankfurt Hbf is still kept as a terminus station, with a crowded mix of regional and long distance services plus many freight on feeding lines.

My question is: why are transit tunnel being built in Stuttgart, and even Leipzig, while I don't even hear a discussion about a Frankfurt bypass?

A 4 km tunnel, parallel to the S-Bahn one (but with no stops and a straighter route), between Hbf and F-Ost, would create a long distance Stammstrecke Stadion - Hbf - Hanau allowing through services Mannheim - Fulda and Würzburg - Köln.

Wouldn't that cut off a lot of time from many ICE services?


Mannheim - Köln services would of course not benefit from this link, but those might be routed via F-Flughafen avoiding the city detour (or still call at Hbf, if so the public demands)*.
*EDIT: sorry, I checked out, they already go via Flughafen
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Old December 20th, 2012, 06:02 AM   #1571
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Just use the goddam plane for rapid long distance intercity travel. No need to waste billions for HSR lines.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 08:56 AM   #1572
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The French already had planes when SNCF first started the TGV project. Now they are the low-cost carrier, having transported over a billion passengers on TGV trains. Domestic flights within France have mostly been eliminated as the train beats the plane with regards to travel times.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 10:47 AM   #1573
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
On a slightly different topic: we're talking a lot about speeding up lines, while I use to think about city knots.
I'm always surprised as a major transit hub as Frankfurt Hbf is still kept as a terminus station, with a crowded mix of regional and long distance services plus many freight on feeding lines.
There were plans for two other "21" projects in the 90ies for Frankfurt and Munich (pretty similar to Stuttgart). They were abandoned because of financial issues though.
I guess that Stuttgart 21 really only makes sense in combination with HSL Stuttgart-Ulm. The main reason for the Leipzig tunnel is not to speed up IC(E)s but to create an integrated S-Bahn Leipzig/Halle.
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Old December 20th, 2012, 12:06 PM   #1574
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Wouldn't you say that a "circle"Berlin-Hannover-Rhürhghbeit-Frankfurt-Stuttgart-München - Leipzig/Dresden - Berlin is a good alignment to start with?
Isn't that what Deutsche Bahn is more or less building right now?
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Old December 20th, 2012, 12:09 PM   #1575
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Making Germany a bit more Berlin-centered wouldn't be a bad thing, though that would go far beyond transportation (it would involve pulling the financial institutions from Frankfurt to Berlin, for instance)
I think everyone but the inhabitants of Berlin would disagree with you on this. (on second thought, I think even most inhabitants of Berlin would disagree)
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Old December 20th, 2012, 12:14 PM   #1576
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The French already had planes when SNCF first started the TGV project. Now they are the low-cost carrier, having transported over a billion passengers on TGV trains. Domestic flights within France have mostly been eliminated as the train beats the plane with regards to travel times.
The fifth largest Metropolitan Area in France is Toulouse, the sixth is Bordeaux. Neither of them are easy to get to from Lyon or Marseilles (#2 and 3). Again, the TGV is great if it's Paris you need to get to.
And look at the schedule of the Bordeax - Toulouse - Marseilles line. In Germany such a corridor would have half hourly service throughout the day. In France there are gaps of up to two hours in the schedule...
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Old December 20th, 2012, 04:17 PM   #1577
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The fifth largest Metropolitan Area in France is Toulouse, the sixth is Bordeaux. Neither of them are easy to get to from Lyon or Marseilles (#2 and 3). Again, the TGV is great if it's Paris you need to get to.
And look at the schedule of the Bordeax - Toulouse - Marseilles line. In Germany such a corridor would have half hourly service throughout the day. In France there are gaps of up to two hours in the schedule...
Welcome to France

The country is very Paris-centric, which can be seen in the layout of the roads as well as the railways.
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Old December 21st, 2012, 05:04 AM   #1578
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There were plans for two other "21" projects in the 90ies for Frankfurt and Munich (pretty similar to Stuttgart). They were abandoned because of financial issues though.
I guess that Stuttgart 21 really only makes sense in combination with HSL Stuttgart-Ulm. The main reason for the Leipzig tunnel is not to speed up IC(E)s but to create an integrated S-Bahn Leipzig/Halle.
i think the frankfurt21 project was way too large-scaled (like stuttgart21), while a "small" solution as pointed out by wilhelm275 would still be very useful and resembles more or less the proposed "kombibahnhof"-solution of stuttgart. additionally a bypass of hanau and finally a highspeedline to fulda (mottgers-spange) would be of great advantage and probably by far more beneficial than stuttgart21 or even the new berlin-munich line.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 01:15 AM   #1579
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Just use the goddam plane for rapid long distance intercity travel. No need to waste billions for HSR lines.
Right because airports dont cost anything. Who the hell are you to tell other countries how to spend their money in transportation infrastructure? HSR optimally serves different corridor lengths much more efficiently than air travel.

Stay out of threads that deal with topics you know nothing about.
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Old December 22nd, 2012, 02:09 PM   #1580
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There were plans for two other "21" projects in the 90ies for Frankfurt and Munich (pretty similar to Stuttgart).
There were a total of 25 "Bahnhof 21" projects of various scale. Some, such as Neu-Ulm 21 or Saarbrücken 21, have already been realized at their full scale.

Three 21 projects - Munich, Frankfurt and Mannheim - were stopped for financial reasons or lack of political support in the last decade, about 15 were discontinued from the initial planning stage in 1998.

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No need to waste billions for HSR lines.
Yeah, better to put them into such successful projects as BER.
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