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Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:27 AM   #1621
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Same goes for those trains actually arriving and departing as scheduled. I have an impression that not everything is right in that department at least in the part of Germany I know best (Baden Wurttemberg). Trains from Germany arrive in Basel late quite often and I have an impression that the punctuality is getting worse instead of better...
I think it's getting better. Trains now arrive in Basel Bad. Bf early quite often, because of the Katzenbergtunnel.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:57 AM   #1622
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Well, ok, but if problems persist on the northern part, this will be just a temporary solution...
Compensating delays on a stretch with an oversized schedule on another is not a solution at all.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:04 PM   #1623
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Well, ok, but if problems persist on the northern part, this will be just a temporary solution...
Compensating delays on a stretch with an oversized schedule on another is not a solution at all.
That is true. But speeding up trains on that route will only start to be useful if you can cut enough time to make the ICEs arrive 20 minutes earlier, so they arrive in time for the xx:30 pulse at Basel. There is still a lot needed here. I don't expect major changes in the schedule and timings on the route before 2017.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 12:29 PM   #1624
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people travelling to Basel don't care about whatever ridiculous "pulse" they have decided upon in Switzerland! It is very pretentious for the Swiss to expect neighboring (and bigger) countries like Germany (and they do the same in Italy) should just conform to whatever network patterns they already have.

But, hey, you are the one that was going berserk one year ago or so over the fact the high-speed trains between Belgium and Germany have longer trasnfer times for passengers coming from Switzerland... you have an extremely Helvetic-centered view of transportation in which everything must fit the Swiss system, God forbids they need to cut down couple regular train paths in Switzerland (which are frequent, so it shouldn't matter) to make way for an international express service.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 02:52 PM   #1625
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EVERY passenger (customer) that does not travel to Basel SBB but only one single station further cares for the integration.
There are pleny of ignoramuses around that don't even get the most basic concepts of travelling and providing services, aparently.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 05:16 PM   #1626
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EVERY passenger (customer) that does not travel to Basel SBB but only one single station further cares for the integration.
There are pleny of ignoramuses around that don't even get the most basic concepts of travelling and providing services, aparently.
You are ignorant yourself. The majority of rail passengers travel within and between larger cities. These people would greatly benefit from faster intercity services. No need for them to fit services into the straight-jacket that an integrated timetable is.
Most services to Basel don't terminate there anyway but continue to Bern or Zürich. With frequent tram services in these three cities picking up passengers it would be well worth accelerating ICE services on the way there.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 06:04 PM   #1627
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You are ignorant yourself. The majority of rail passengers travel within and between larger cities. These people would greatly benefit from faster intercity services. No need for them to fit services into the straight-jacket that an integrated timetable is.
Most services to Basel don't terminate there anyway but continue to Bern or Zürich. With frequent tram services in these three cities picking up passengers it would be well worth accelerating ICE services on the way there.
If you want to travel from Freiburg to Paris, the most and fastest connections are still running over Basel SBB. It makes a lot of sense, if the ICE from the north arrives at the same time than the TGV Zürich-Paris. If the ICE Frankfurt-Interlaken has a prompt interchange facility to Zürich and Chur, you have a lot more fast connections between Frankfurt and Zürich than with direct trains. This gives you more flexibility. Time to wait on your train is also travel time.
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 11:15 PM   #1628
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Considering that the route via Basel is the single most important connection between Germany and Switzerland, it would be fatuous to think of Basel as an isolated terminus where most people travel to.
Especially considering that the trinational metro area in itself creates lots of internal traffic and hence demands an integrated public traffic system.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 12:32 AM   #1629
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DB had to go through a lot of fights with NIMBYs to cancel the ICE stop at the Zoo, just three S-Bahn stops west of Hauptbahnhof (admittedly the Zoo is better interconnected to local metro and bus lines than Hbf).
Wouldn't they have to cancel the ICE stop at Zoo anyway if they route trains via Jungfernheide to Spandau instead of via the cross-town line?
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Old January 4th, 2013, 02:20 AM   #1630
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If you want to travel from Freiburg to Paris, the most and fastest connections are still running over Basel SBB. It makes a lot of sense, if the ICE from the north arrives at the same time than the TGV Zürich-Paris. If the ICE Frankfurt-Interlaken has a prompt interchange facility to Zürich and Chur, you have a lot more fast connections between Frankfurt and Zürich than with direct trains. This gives you more flexibility. Time to wait on your train is also travel time.
I don't know where you looked, the fastest way from Freiburg(Breisgau) to Paris is via Offenburg and Strasbourg.

Regardless of that the route via Basel wouldn't be harmed if the ICE service arrived earlier in Basel SBB. In fact traveller would have more time changing trains.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 02:27 AM   #1631
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Wouldn't they have to cancel the ICE stop at Zoo anyway if they route trains via Jungfernheide to Spandau instead of via the cross-town line?
They would indeed. Yet, most ICE services still run on the Stadtbahn route through the town to Berlin Ostbf though.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 05:05 AM   #1632
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Regardless of that the route via Basel wouldn't be harmed if the ICE service arrived earlier in Basel SBB. In fact traveller would have more time changing trains.
That would not be a problem for people going to Basel city or changing train there; but then you'd have a train sitting for 10+ minutes waiting for its slot to go on...

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They would indeed. Yet, most ICE services still run on the Stadtbahn route through the town to Berlin Ostbf though.
Yep. In a distant future, whenever the Dresdner Bahn will be completed (from B-Hbf) and upgraded, you may choose to send to Dreden some of the ICEs now terminating at Rummelsburg, via the N-S tunnel... but right now the Stadtbahn is still the best options to go from Spandau to Rummelsburg.
Unless... you may want to send at least one of the two ICE2 from Hannover to BER, and then to Rummelsburg. In that case you may separate the trainset in Spandau and follow two different routes.

Well, if BER will ever open
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Last edited by Wilhem275; January 4th, 2013 at 05:13 AM.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 11:17 AM   #1633
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Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
That would not be a problem for people going to Basel city or changing train there; but then you'd have a train sitting for 10+ minutes waiting for its slot to go on...
That is already happening. The TGV from PAris to Zürich is made to wait in Basel, sometimes up to ten minutes. Whether this is due to mistrust of the punctuality of all neighboring countries or due to incompatible slots on the French and Swiss side I do not know. It makes all this talk of on the minute connections our Swissified contributors praise rather superfluous.


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Yep. In a distant future, whenever the Dresdner Bahn will be completed (from B-Hbf) and upgraded, you may choose to send to Dreden some of the ICEs now terminating at Rummelsburg, via the N-S tunnel... but right now the Stadtbahn is still the best options to go from Spandau to Rummelsburg.
Unless... you may want to send at least one of the two ICE2 from Hannover to BER, and then to Rummelsburg. In that case you may separate the trainset in Spandau and follow two different routes.

Well, if BER will ever open
DB is slowly trying to move its long-distance services from the Stadtbahn onto the Jungfernheide stretch. This route saves something like 4-5 minutes traveling time, but does not allow for the line to begin in the much frequented Ostbahnhof but in the middle of nowhere station Südkreuz. This solution puts potential ICE users in the east of the city at a disadvantage, forcing them to do rather long S-Bahn rides to get to the ICE. However with the intent to use the Stadtbahn for more frequent Regionalbahns to Potsdam, some of the Braunschweig-bound ICEs now depart from Südkreuz and use the Jungfernheide route.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 11:50 AM   #1634
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In Berlin the situation is quite weird.
There are two main crossing lines: East-West (the Stadtbahn) and the new North-South one. Statbahn is fulfilled, the two tracks of regional and long distance services is overweighted even now, and were critical before 2006. N-S tunnel has lots of free capacity, the lower level station of Hauptbahnhof (Berlin Central Station) is pretty emtpy, usually you can see 5-7 (often 8) empty tracks there. Travel times from almost every starting points to Hauptbahnhof and vice versa is shorter through the N-S tunnel than through Stadtbahn.
So, we may see that almost all long distance services should go to the basement of Hbf.
However, the Hbf. is located in the middle of nothing, having very poor city transport connections. The connected stations Südkreuz and Gesundbrunnen are not much better.
The stations Ostbahnhof and Zoologischer Garten would be perfect for travellers but, what a pity, they both are in Stadtbahn.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 12:11 PM   #1635
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However, the Hbf. is located in the middle of nothing, having very poor city transport connections.
When U55 is finally linked with U5 that willl change though.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 01:18 PM   #1636
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However, the Hbf. is located in the middle of nothing, having very poor city transport connections. The connected stations Südkreuz and Gesundbrunnen are not much better.
The stations Ostbahnhof and Zoologischer Garten would be perfect for travellers but, what a pity, they both are in Stadtbahn.
Ostbahnhof isn't particularly well connected either. ICE services calling there can be attributed mainly to the location of the ICE depot in Rummelsburg I suppose.

Lehrter Bf on the other hand is improving. It won't be placed in the middle of nowhere for too much longer. The area around the station is going to be developed. And with a new S-Bahn, a new metro and an extended tram line its intra-city connectivity will also be vastly improved.

As for the spare capacities on the Tiergarten route. These will remain vacant at least as long as one of the two southern approaches hasn't been built yet. The mainline tracks of the Dresden line are essential for the entire rail hub Berlin. Once this upgrade is finished the subsurface train shed of Lehrter Bf will become a lot more livelier.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 01:35 PM   #1637
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Connectivity is not everything. It is true that Ostbahnhof has no other rail connection, but it is a lively station with many commuters. On the other hand, Gesundbrunnen is a very well connected station with an U-Bahn and S-Bahn tracks in several directions, but the long distance platforms remain painfully empty (admittedly services are too rare there.
The Lehrter Bf. is indeed extremely busy, it is the only one of the stations inaugurated in 2006 which is a success. I also believe when the lines that should have existed already in 2006 are finally built it will work fairly well (i.e. U5, S21, and the tram extension towards Naturkundemuseum). If then either U5 or the tram would be extended into Moabit, many WEst Berliners could give up their nostalgia for the Zoo.
@flierfly: I do not understand your argumentation: you know that Dresden bound trains already depart in the cellar of Lehrter Bf., don't you ? Are you saying the fact that these trains use the Anhalter Bahn through Berlin is already enough so the Anhalter Bahn has reached its limits? As all these trains will continue to use the same route between Südkreuz and Lehrter Bf even if the Dresdner Bahn is ever built (may the God of iron punish Wowereit and his NIMBY-aversion to the Dresdner Bahn), what will make the difference?
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Old January 4th, 2013, 01:41 PM   #1638
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I don't know where you looked, the fastest way from Freiburg(Breisgau) to Paris is via Offenburg and Strasbourg.

Regardless of that the route via Basel wouldn't be harmed if the ICE service arrived earlier in Basel SBB. In fact traveller would have more time changing trains.
The TGV needs from Basel SBB to Gare de Lyon 3.03 h. The ICE needs from Freiburg to Basel SBB 0.43 h. Including 0.11 h time for changing trains, the miminum travel time could be 3.57 h between Freiburg and Paris.

But you' re right. Traveltime Freiburg Gare de l' Est via Straßburg is only 3.38 h, with changing train twice and time for each changing 0.11 h. Your connection via Straßburg is the best argument for coordinating the pulse.
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Old January 4th, 2013, 02:21 PM   #1639
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(may the God of iron punish Wowereit and his NIMBY-aversion to the Dresdner Bahn)

I suppose the poor dispatcher controlling the Kramerkurve is offering human sacrifices to that God in order to see the Dresdner complete


Oh, poor missing link...
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Old January 5th, 2013, 11:50 AM   #1640
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people travelling to Basel don't care about whatever ridiculous "pulse" they have decided upon in Switzerland! It is very pretentious for the Swiss to expect neighboring (and bigger) countries like Germany (and they do the same in Italy) should just conform to whatever network patterns they already have.
Actually basically all trains in Lombardia region in Italy (especially those north of Milan) received new scheduled in December 2008, on a structure determined by the schedule of Cisalpino trains, that is, from a fixed point in...Arth Goldau!

(the fact that Cisalpino paths are too strict causing a lot of delays to Milan's S9 and S11 services is another matter)

(this structure - although it doesn't work for Cisalpino because of their unrealistic paths - allow for good connections between all trains, so that Lecco-Firenze, Novara-Bologna, Como-Naples, Zürich-Rome, Lugano-Venice relations are all possible because - how incredible it is! - also HS trains are integrated into this structured timetable)
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