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Old January 5th, 2013, 12:07 PM   #1641
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
people travelling to Basel don't care about whatever ridiculous "pulse" they have decided upon in Switzerland! It is very pretentious for the Swiss to expect neighboring (and bigger) countries like Germany (and they do the same in Italy) should just conform to whatever network patterns they already have.

But, hey, you are the one that was going berserk one year ago or so over the fact the high-speed trains between Belgium and Germany have longer trasnfer times for passengers coming from Switzerland... you have an extremely Helvetic-centered view of transportation in which everything must fit the Swiss system, God forbids they need to cut down couple regular train paths in Switzerland (which are frequent, so it shouldn't matter) to make way for an international express service.
No, I wasn't going "berserk". I was offering an example of how investment in faster trains without thinking about the timetable can lead to lots of money spend without a significant time saving as a result...
Secondly you are again showing your ignorance. For example it's currently Italy that is dictating the arrival times of EC trains in Milano, not Switzerland. However the current arrival times are actually rather convenient ones, so I guess SBB isn't complaining.
For Basel, well, it is in the interest of DB for their trains to Basel to have maximum utility for their passengers. And that means integration with the Swiss timetable. DB doesn't have problem with that concept however.
And yes, cutting a few domestic trains in order to speed up an international trains is not going to happen. For one thing, SBB isn't allowed to do that. For another, SBB wouldn't want to do that either. They are a company after all, and want to make money. Cutting domestic services to gain a few minutes on international services would mean less revenue for them.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 12:25 PM   #1642
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Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
That is already happening. The TGV from PAris to Zürich is made to wait in Basel, sometimes up to ten minutes. Whether this is due to mistrust of the punctuality of all neighboring countries or due to incompatible slots on the French and Swiss side I do not know. It makes all this talk of on the minute connections our Swissified contributors praise rather superfluous.
The stop is 7 minutes, except for one train. 7 minutes in a major hub is not uncommon in Switzerland, and it is in fact this padding which is the reason for the Swiss punctuality...
The one exception is a train that should normally leave Basel for Zürich at 17:33, but because that is rush hour SBB runs a normal IC in that path and sends the TGV 3 minutes after it.
This has thus nothing to do with incompatibility. In fact, the timetable for the LGV Rhin - Rhone was designed by SMA and Partners, a Swiss firm.
The TGV schedule is well integrated in Basel with the other Swiss trains, putting thus the whole of the Mittelland within about 4 hours of Paris...
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Old January 5th, 2013, 12:28 PM   #1643
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
No, I wasn't going "berserk". I was offering an example of how investment in faster trains without thinking about the timetable can lead to lots of money spend without a significant time saving as a result...
I once had to go from Turin to Switzerland in the evening. I wanted to use a Frecciarossa first, then a Cisalpino train. However, the connection between was of only 10 minutes, and with less than 15 minutes in Milano Centrale, if the first train is late you will not have any refund or help. And the Cisalpino was the last of the day...

The end result is that I left Turin one hour before, paying 10 € instead of the full fare of 30 € for the Frecciarossa I was ready to pay. Trenitalia lost money, but without any other advantage.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
For example it's currently Italy that is dictating the arrival times of EC trains in Milano, not Switzerland. However the current arrival times are actually rather convenient ones, so I guess SBB isn't complaining.
Things are quite complicated here, there are a lot of discussions right now between all involved parts, but I cannot say more, it's a public forum...
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Old January 5th, 2013, 12:28 PM   #1644
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Most services to Basel don't terminate there anyway but continue to Bern or Zürich.
Indeed. But because the timetable is clever a Frankfurt - Zürich train is also usefull for someone who wants to go to Bern, and vice versa, which means that you have a fast connection from Bern to Frankfurt every hour, and from Zürich to Frankfurt every hour. That makes it more useful for people living in those cities.
DB does the same in Mannheim. Trains arrive from Köln alternate between going to Basel or München. Trains from Frankfurt do the same. By coordinating the arrival/departures in Mannheim the end result is a doubling of the available travel options between those cities, and that without having to run more trains...
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Old January 5th, 2013, 07:56 PM   #1645
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One should think that this isn't rocket science. For some it is, apparently.
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Old January 5th, 2013, 08:58 PM   #1646
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
For frequent HSR stops, look at Tokyo. ALL Tokaido Shinkansen trains stop at Tokyo Main station, then Shinagawa Station less than 7 km from Tokyo, then Shin-Yokohama 26 km from Tokyo. Most northbound Shinkansens originate at Tokyo, then stop at Ueno just 3,6 km away, then at Omiya station 32 km away, though there some trains do skip either Ueno or Omiya.

Note that no Shinkansen trains travel through Osaka. 5 stops in under 60 km wouls slow down the through services a bit.

Is Darmstadt also a useful commuter train/metro hub to serve southern suburbs of Frankfurt?
Finally someone makes the right comparison!

Not only are Japan's railways and Japan as a country much more comparable to Germany and its railways (rather than France or Spain!), as the best railway in the world Japan should be our main role model here!
I would appreciate it if people would make the right comparisons like this more often.


On Darmstadt:

Its obvious that people here dont know the Rhein-Main-Region. They dont even know that Darmstadt is not only part of the Region, but its 2nd most important (economic) column!

Darmstadt has an official population of only 150K, but it has a lot of suburbs - greater DA has a population of close to 500K.
In addition it is the center of the South-Hesse Region, and an ICE stop there is supposed to provide for this entire region.
This region has a population of about a million!

And 1 million people are not even the main reason for the ICE to stop there.
In germany the railway serves the economy / Die Bahn bedient die Wirtschaft!
The RM-Region is the strongest economy-region of Europe. And DA is the after F the most important city in the region (in economic terms)



btw putting some freight trains onthe HSR at nights doesnt solve anything; we already have that today. Freight trains at days are the biggest annoyance of German railways! At nights they dont annoy the operation flow (not considering the noise issue)
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Old January 5th, 2013, 11:01 PM   #1647
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maniei View Post
Finally someone makes the right comparison!

Not only are Japan's railways and Japan as a country much more comparable to Germany and its railways (rather than France or Spain!), as the best railway in the world Japan should be our main role model here!
I would appreciate it if people would make the right comparisons like this more often.


On Darmstadt:

Its obvious that people here dont know the Rhein-Main-Region. They dont even know that Darmstadt is not only part of the Region, but its 2nd most important (economic) column!

Darmstadt has an official population of only 150K, but it has a lot of suburbs - greater DA has a population of close to 500K.
In addition it is the center of the South-Hesse Region, and an ICE stop there is supposed to provide for this entire region.
This region has a population of about a million!

And 1 million people are not even the main reason for the ICE to stop there.
In germany the railway serves the economy / Die Bahn bedient die Wirtschaft!
The RM-Region is the strongest economy-region of Europe. And DA is the after F the most important city in the region (in economic terms)



btw putting some freight trains onthe HSR at nights doesnt solve anything; we already have that today. Freight trains at days are the biggest annoyance of German railways! At nights they dont annoy the operation flow (not considering the noise issue)
But your freight trains are short , why are they a problem?
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Old January 6th, 2013, 03:24 AM   #1648
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Quote:
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But your freight trains are short , why are they a problem?
The problem is more trains circulating at night (that happen to be freight ones because of time).
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Old January 6th, 2013, 10:26 AM   #1649
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btw putting some freight trains onthe HSR at nights doesnt solve anything; we already have that today.
But it does. It gets them out of existing build up areas.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 11:26 AM   #1650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
But your freight trains are short , why are they a problem?
European freight trains are short, but frequent (6+ per hour per direction, without counting passenger trains), sometimes run in batches with a few minutes between them.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 12:59 PM   #1651
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Length isn't the issue. The main problem in terms of capacity is the mixed use of lines: We have passenger trains (almost all of them, even ordinary regional services) that are much faster than freight trains. This makes it much more complicated to integrate both in timetables and if a freight train is delayed it often results in significant delays for passenger trains because they have to brake down a lot.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 01:37 PM   #1652
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@Maniei: since I live there, I know Rhein-Main and Darmstadt very well!
It's not like Darmstadt wouldn't be served by train anymore without a stop of the HSL. That's not even true to long distance trains, since the hourly ICs of lines 26 and 62, in future maybe even more ICs and eventually some trains from Köln which stop at every station between Frankfurt and Köln would still stop there.
But since we're talking about a much needed HIGH SPEED rail line in Germany's most congested rail corridor with the highest amount of HIGH SPEED trains, Darmstadt is too close not only to Mannheim but especially to Frankfurt, so a stop in DA wouldn't make the slightest sence. Trains would not even have finished accelerating when they have to slow down again, and travel times would not be shortened compared to today (current travel times aren't really fast, nearly 90 minutes for 180km is no competition, not even to car).
If DA would be located in the middle of nowhere, it would be a different situation, but it's located where it is, so Frankfurt and Mannheim are its high speed rail stations!

EDIT @Thun: speeds of freight and regional passenger trains are rather comparable. It's the mix with high speed trains which is mainly responsible for less than possible capacity on the Riedbahn.
Best solution would be to build the HSL as planned without a stop at Darmstadt Hbf (one could think of a station at the line itself for some fast regional trains from DA to Mannheim, Frankfurt, the Airport, Wiesbaden or even Köln, just like Limburg or Montabaur). There should be a junction with the line Mainz - Darmstadt and between there and anywhere near Viernheim where the routes to Mannheim Hbf and Mannheim Bypass (both mixed-use of HSR and freight traffic) separate, the line gets 4 instead of 2 tracks. 2x 160km/h for freight and 2x 300km/h for HSR, connected with each other every few kilometers, so that trains could also use the other tracks in cases of incidents.

Last edited by Rohne; January 6th, 2013 at 01:58 PM.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 02:46 PM   #1653
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexis View Post
But your freight trains are short , why are they a problem?
A freight train regardless of its length need a train path, just as any other train. These paths are increasingly scarce on railway line on certain trunk routes. Which is a serious concern.
Maniei, however, is exaggerating the problem in an obvious attempt to promote forced stops for high-speed services in his beloved Darmstadt.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #1654
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EDIT @Thun: speeds of freight and regional passenger trains are rather comparable. It's the mix with high speed trains which is mainly responsible for less than possible capacity on the Riedbahn.
I seriously doubt that. (Heavy) freight trains typically don't go faster than 80kph, mainline regional express trains easily up to 150kph or so. Admittedly they loose time when they stop. On the other hand I've been numberous times in diesel RE trains (not going faster than 120kph/averaging 100kph incl. stops, so rather slow ones) queuing behind delayed S-Bahns (which certainly aren't slower than freight trains) and being delayed 15-20min at the S-Bahn terminus. Hence, freight trains will under certain circumstances delay regional services as well, not only IC(E)s.
Feel free to proove me wrong by giving some data/sources.
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Old January 6th, 2013, 07:52 PM   #1655
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Michael Portillo falls in love with the German railroads:

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Old January 7th, 2013, 04:04 AM   #1656
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
European freight trains are short, but frequent (6+ per hour per direction, without counting passenger trains), sometimes run in batches with a few minutes between them.
Maybe you should use the knuckle coupler , and replace those 6 trains with 1 train which would free up capacity.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 05:37 AM   #1657
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Not so simple... most of our traffic have very eterogeneous origins and destinations. Traffic is congested on trunk routes, but only because they are the most convenient choice for many different paths, not because there's a lot of traffic from A to B (well, sometimes there is).

Congested trunk routes are not long enough to make convenient stopping and compacting more trains into a longer one: you'd have to reform the train every few hundred km... needing a lot of intermediate shunting areas and high availability of "local" locos and staff.
What is more, the network is designed on not very long trains (compared to the US): freight traffic often stops to let passenger trains go on; it'd be hard to find a space to park very long trains.

Some experiments on longer trains are going on in Germany, though.
Your proposal is not wrong, anyway. If instead of reforming the trains (removing the locos) one could just build up a longer one by queueing many trains with their own loco, the trick would be much simpler and quickier. This would require a common and wireless control of the machines from the leading one, as it happens in the US, and I think this could be done without too much effort and new costs. Technology is ready.
Different companies would share the path cost, while train staff could stay on the machines or let them go on unmanned till the next separation, that's just bureacracy.

And I'm still wondering why we don't use a serious automatic coupler, which would bring a whole new meaning to Rangierbahnhöfe (marshalling yards?) all across Europe.
Designs of an automatic coupler compatible with the existing chain and buffers exist from a long time...
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Old January 7th, 2013, 08:07 AM   #1658
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Maybe you should use the knuckle coupler , and replace those 6 trains with 1 train which would free up capacity.
There are talks of making freight trains longer. However, that's not just a matter of using a different coupler. You also need to extend sidings, adapt signalling and block lengths etc.
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Old January 7th, 2013, 08:09 AM   #1659
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And I'm still wondering why we don't use a serious automatic coupler, which would bring a whole new meaning to Rangierbahnhöfe (marshalling yards?) all across Europe.
Designs of an automatic coupler compatible with the existing chain and buffers exist from a long time...
The costs are high, and the benefits are limited as most trains run as block trains now, and are not marshalled.
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Old January 8th, 2013, 12:13 AM   #1660
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Knuckles have already become a global standard on standard-gauge rail--(Western) Europe is the only really big bloc using that spec that don't have them. But yeah agreed, it would be a tremendous expense, and one needing the network to be retooled, too.

But the other thing is that I don't completely buy the whole "we ship our bulk on ship" thing, either. While it works west of roughly the German border, the peninsular geography of Europe dictates decreasing returns on this mode of shipment as you head further east...because large ocean-going vessels are still going to have to round the Iberian Peninsula, which creates very parabolic routing. I would argue that there is an untapped potential bulk market between the Baltic and the Balkans--simply because between e.g. Gdansk and Constanta, the rail shipping route is bound to be shorter than either salt waterways, and have higher effective capacity than the fresh waterway. Of course, the problem with this realization is with how many nations would have to have their rail systems synch up to realize this corridor.

On that note, Rostock-Trieste would be a good alignment to pilot a bulk freight service--a substantially shorter overland route vs. the searoad, and relatively few players needing to synch their schedules up accordingly.
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