daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 27th, 2013, 02:07 PM   #1701
kato2k8
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 527
Likes (Received): 106

Uh, you realize that TEN24 doesn't just connect Genoa and Rotterdam nonstop? That trains on that route are assembled at the cargo stations along it? Gremberg for Rhine-Ruhr, Mannheim for Rhine-Main, Rhine-Neckar and Stuttgart, Basel for Switzerland?

On a side note, Basel SBB RB (the freight station) is in Muttenz. Left Bank of the Rhine.
kato2k8 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 27th, 2013, 10:16 PM   #1702
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

If you want to build a freight-only line, the most important consideration should in fact be where it would cause as less noise pollution possible. Not to keep it on one side of the bloody river at all costs.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 28th, 2013, 03:27 PM   #1703
Wilhem275
The Transporter
 
Wilhem275's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Genoa & Venice [I]
Posts: 2,733
Likes (Received): 767

Yep, thank you for explaining me the concept of corridors, that's usually my job but it's nice to see someone else do it sometimes
Btw, you'll agree that the position of Muttenz is not exactly sortable under "right or left Rhine" as we use to define lines and yards along the German course of the River...


I'll try to explain what I had in mind: I suppose that, apart from through trains running on the corridor, the main O/D areas of freight are on the right bank, since the main urban and industrial areas are there.
But I'd also like to see some data about this: how much of the traffic is originated from Rhein-Neckar and Rhein-Main areas, and how much comes from external areas (being them Ruhr, Ba-Wu, Basel or whatever)?
z.B. how many trains/week does the Darmstadt industrial complex generate?

If we have at least a rough percentage it'd be easier to outline a solution.

On the other hand: strictly talking of through traffic, nowaday all "almost dedicated" freight infrastructures are on the right bank (all the ABS/NBS Basel - Mannheim, all the corridor from Wiesbaden to Oberhausen); the stretch Mannheim - Mainz/Wiesbaden is relatively short.
There's no religion obliging us to stick on one side of the river, of course, but I figure out that if such a constant traffic flow is meant to go left at Mannheim and the get back at Mainz, it's got to be done with dedicated new bridges.
The existing ones are already bottlenecks, I couldn't imagine loading them to all the N-S freight traffic.

I'm not taking a position here: just pointing out that the idea of going to the other side brings in the cost of new bridges.

Talking about passenger services: what's the current usage of Ludwigshafen - Mainz line?
__________________
I've sold monorails to Brockway, Ogdenville, and North Haverbrooke, and by gum, it put them on the map!
Well, sir, there's nothing on earth like a genuine, bona fide, electrified, six-car monorail!

Marchionne means never having to say you're sorry.

Due to Photobucket f*cking up, most images won't be visibile in my old posts. If you need anything specific, please write me.
Wilhem275 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 28th, 2013, 06:50 PM   #1704
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Of course going on the other side could mean new bridges. But that's - as well a detour of a few kilometres (which especially for freight trains isn't that bad) - would still be acceptable if that would be the easiest option to keep noise pollution as low as possible.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 31st, 2013, 10:21 PM   #1705
Henri
Registered User
 
Henri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Mulhouse, Alsace, France
Posts: 378
Likes (Received): 21

La gare de Titisee dans la Forêt-Noire en Allemagne

http://youtu.be/CzfpX3gMOzU
Henri no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 1st, 2013, 11:48 AM   #1706
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

Compliance Verification Clause unlocks the Fourth Railway Package
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 2nd, 2013, 01:09 PM   #1707
kato2k8
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 527
Likes (Received): 106

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
But I'd also like to see some data about this: how much of the traffic is originated from Rhein-Neckar and Rhein-Main areas, and how much comes from external areas (being them Ruhr, Ba-Wu, Basel or whatever)?
Well, if we could get Eurostat's NUTS-2 statistics on this at least...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
I'm not taking a position here: just pointing out that the idea of going to the other side brings in the cost of new bridges.
What would those two bridges cost, 250 million Euro at most including connections to existing rail tracks either side? Bridges are cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Talking about passenger services: what's the current usage of Ludwigshafen - Mainz line?
Two-hour timeframe: Four RBs, two ICs, two RE for the two-hour frametime. RBs planned to be converted to an S-Bahn line with more stops by 2015, building for that launches in a couple months. Planned expansion post-2020 doubling S-Bahn trains Ludwigshafen to Frankenthal.
Remaining slots mostly filled by freight from/to BASF.
kato2k8 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2013, 04:52 PM   #1708
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,039
Likes (Received): 8718

Surprise, surprise Stuttgart 21 adds another billion to the construction costs. We're now at 6,8 Billion Euros and apparently the federal government refuses to cover any price hikes:

http://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/in...b5ad3a236.html
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2013, 09:13 PM   #1709
Deadeye Reloaded
Cold Ass Honkey
 
Deadeye Reloaded's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Göttingen/Lüdenscheid/Rybnik
Posts: 2,330
Likes (Received): 8965


Peanuts.
Another number which puts this price tag into the right perspective:

Quote:
A 200-Billion-Euro Waste: Study Shows Germany Wasting Billions on Failed Family Policy

Germany spends more on families than most European countries, but its birth rate is falling. A government-commissioned study seen by SPIEGEL argues most of the money is being wasted. Instead of complicated benefits and tax breaks, the government urgently needs to invest in preschools.

[...]

200 billion €uro wasted EVERY year on a failed family policy.

__________________
I may not be perfect, but Jesus thinks I´m to die for.
I can't stand auto correct. It's my worst enema!
I often quote myself. I find it adds spice to the conversation.
What Is Love?
Deadeye Reloaded no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2013, 09:26 PM   #1710
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingNick View Post
Surprise, surprise Stuttgart 21 adds another billion to the construction costs. We're now at 6,8 Billion Euros and apparently the federal government refuses to cover any price hikes:

http://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/in...b5ad3a236.html
Still, it's a very sexy project.
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2013, 04:35 PM   #1711
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

European Union Commission plans rail unbundling
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2013, 06:44 PM   #1712
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,039
Likes (Received): 8718

What's their argumentation, why unbundling infrastructure from daily business is a bad thing? I see no valid argument there apart from it was always like this.
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2013, 07:30 PM   #1713
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385



One argument apparently made strongly by DB and also Angela Merkel is the one which says breaking up the structure of such a massive organisation like DB might run the risk of introducing social unrest into Germany.

I can see the logic in this argument.

While the employees of a new German rail infrastructure body - lets call it NetzBahn - would remain public sector employees and therefore would still retain comfortable civil-service job contracts, the employees within the train operating part of a split-DB Group, such as DB Schenker, would probably worry that they would either eventually be made redundant or would have to sign up to new, more flexible, private-sector orientated job contracts.

If the DB group were to split the infrastructure part of things from the train operation side of things, the only logical course to take would be to sell the shares of DB Schenker.

To lower costs, remain competitive and make profits, DB Schenker would have to review the employment contracts of, for example, locomotive drivers. These would now only drive trains for DB Schenker, in contrast to the situation now where I believe a DB driver can, in theory at least, drive any train within any part of the DB group operation.

It's also possible that DB Schenker might have to stop certain trains if they proved to be unprofitable, again which mean the possibility of people losing jobs.

On the passenger train side of things, even if the German state remained the shareholder of a new 'DB' passenger train operating company, this company would have compete on the same terms as any other operator. This means again the risk of job cuts and possible changes in employment conditions.

I'm sure that is accepted within German political circles and within DB itself that one day there must be infrastructure separation in Germany, as indeed there must be across the whole of the EU.

However, it's all about how fast this transition is made and how to make the change process as painless as possible for what must surely be one of the largest employers in Germany.
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2013, 08:05 PM   #1714
KingNick
Make Wu'bar Great Again
 
KingNick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 6,039
Likes (Received): 8718

So the argument is keeping this uneconomical monster alive - if this wasn't the case all the worries stated by DB and Germany are just nonsense - no matter of costs and make sure private competitors don't even get the possibility to compete on the same level.

Sorry, but this is just stately protection at it's best and nothing else.
KingNick no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 8th, 2013, 08:31 PM   #1715
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385



I think it's more complex an issue than that. DB is so large and employs such a large number of people that to shake it up too soon and too quickly might lead to considerable strife among some of the employees and the communities within they live.

It also may disrupt operations in a negative way and the fact is that the German rail network, given the importance of the German economy in Europe and the location of Germany itself within Europe, is too important to mess around with in the same kind of chaotic fashion that, say, the UK rail network was messed around with during the early 1990s.

Changing DB is something that needs to be thought through carefully. I'm sure this is what the plan already is; to come up with a plan that will be a workable as possible and as appealing as possible to DB employees.

In the meantime, though, yes, DB will continue to enjoy a position of relative strength verses new entrants.
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 09:23 PM   #1716
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,886
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by TedStriker View Post
lets call it NetzBahn
It will certainly not be called Netzbahn. Bahnnnetz is more likely as the word vastly more appropriate.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 9th, 2013, 09:29 PM   #1717
AlexNL
Registered User
 
AlexNL's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,629
Likes (Received): 537

If there will be a separate company at all. The Swedes simply integrated rail infrastructure management with the road authority, Trafikverket. Germany could do the same.
__________________
We are shaping the future
AlexNL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 10th, 2013, 12:39 PM   #1718
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Bahnnnetz is more likely as the word vastly more appropriate.

Or even Bahnnetz...
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2013, 12:17 PM   #1719
TedStriker
Over Macho Grande
 
TedStriker's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: London
Posts: 2,517
Likes (Received): 385

Losing Steam: Massive Rail Project Haunts Merkel Campaign
TedStriker no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 13th, 2013, 09:54 PM   #1720
Galactic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 39
Likes (Received): 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
If there will be a separate company at all. The Swedes simply integrated rail infrastructure management with the road authority, Trafikverket. Germany could do the same.
Actually, they had a separate rail administration agency called Banverket between 1988 and 2010, which was then merged with Vägverket to form Trafikverket.

If the Germans want to move forward slowly, wouldn't separating the railway infrastructure management into its own entity be a smaller change than one body responsible for both rail and road? On the other hand, the difference could be negligible compared to the huge shake-up that breaking up DB would be.

Last edited by Galactic; February 13th, 2013 at 09:59 PM.
Galactic no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:41 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium