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Old March 28th, 2009, 11:59 AM   #161
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Nice updates, thanks! It's good that DB is securing new rolling stock. Some of the stock there is looking a little shabby.
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Old March 28th, 2009, 04:57 PM   #162
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422 will replace the loco push-pull trains in the Rhein/ruhr S-Bahn services soon. Talent 2 will do the same job at S-Bahn Nürnberg. The 442 and double decker fronts ate quite ugly IMO.


The new EMU for regional services in Bavaria (mainly Augsburg, Regensburg and Munich-Passau):
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Old March 28th, 2009, 08:24 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
[…]
Talent 2 will do the same job at S-Bahn Nürnberg.
[…]
And on the RE line Aachen–Köln–Siegen of DB Rheinland.
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Old June 26th, 2009, 02:00 PM   #164
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How is this project progressing? Any news?
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Old June 27th, 2009, 04:09 AM   #165
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Originally Posted by eusebius View Post
Saw it on Monitor just 2 days ago, shame though Bahn cuts so many services now that it is going to the stock exchange. No more trains to Hof
That's what happens when you privatize. Deutsche Bahn should stay in public hands.
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Old June 27th, 2009, 10:14 AM   #166
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That's what happens when you privatize. Deutsche Bahn should stay in public hands.
I beg to differ. This is not a consequence of privatisation per se, but rather of what we might call "privatisation with ill intent". There's no reason you cannot privatise a company and then offer it (or its competitors) public subsidies to keep up minimum service levels in areas where doing so is commercially unviable but socially necessary. You may even organise a public tender: "We need 6 trains per day to Hof. Who will do it for the smallest subsidy?"

What I suggest is not just a pie in the sky. The Aussies, for example, are very adept at this. The water companies charge insanely high water rates in arid parts of the country - reflecting the actual cost of piping water to Alice Springs and beyond - which then the government beats down, through public subsidies, to affordable prices at the tap. The subsidies, thus, are on the public accounts, the cost of maintaining settlements in the desert for everyone to see. The problem is...

...companies like DB have cross-subsidised lossmaking lines for ages with money they scored on lucrative monopolies elsewhere. The problem arises if the goverment wants to privatise the company WITHOUT doing the honest thing and paying a direct subsidy a-la-Australia.
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Old June 27th, 2009, 08:25 PM   #167
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I have read several reports on the DB. In order to make its number look more promising it has cut down maintenance levels below subsistence, ie it is consuming its infrastructure slowly as it does not keep it up to maintain the good level it has now.

Funny in this regard is that it does already what privatisation has shown most rail companies do once they are privatized already before the Bahn is privatized. But you can bet that once its privatized that trend will only increase, we have seen this already many times before. It always ends with the infrastructure lying in rumble and the revenue from these practices being found on private accounts of the shareholders. The tax payer however has to come up do undo the caused damage afterwards.

Thats nothing else than making a fortune out of taxpayer money over the long run. Thats what privatisation of railway companies is all about.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 12:10 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I beg to differ. This is not a consequence of privatisation per se, but rather of what we might call "privatisation with ill intent". There's no reason you cannot privatise a company and then offer it (or its competitors) public subsidies to keep up minimum service levels in areas where doing so is commercially unviable but socially necessary. You may even organise a public tender: "We need 6 trains per day to Hof. Who will do it for the smallest subsidy?"

What I suggest is not just a pie in the sky. The Aussies, for example, are very adept at this. The water companies charge insanely high water rates in arid parts of the country - reflecting the actual cost of piping water to Alice Springs and beyond - which then the government beats down, through public subsidies, to affordable prices at the tap. The subsidies, thus, are on the public accounts, the cost of maintaining settlements in the desert for everyone to see. The problem is...

...companies like DB have cross-subsidised lossmaking lines for ages with money they scored on lucrative monopolies elsewhere. The problem arises if the goverment wants to privatise the company WITHOUT doing the honest thing and paying a direct subsidy a-la-Australia.
OK, I can see where you are coming from. I don't have a problem with privatizing rail services (the operators of the trains) but I am fervent in my belief that the infrastructure (railways, terminals, etc.) stay in public hands. The private rail service providers can pay a fee for the rights to run trains on a certain route or routes, but the central government owns and maintains the track and stations.

This is the situation with air travel in the U.S. Private airlines with most airports and accompanying infrastructure owned by the government.
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Old June 29th, 2009, 09:09 AM   #169
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This is the most incredible thing I've ever seen. Hides the ugly (though debatable) of the rail tracks and gives it a high-tech feel. These projects really do surprise me they're so wonderful!
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Old June 29th, 2009, 10:23 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hoosier View Post
OK, I can see where you are coming from. I don't have a problem with privatizing rail services (the operators of the trains) but I am fervent in my belief that the infrastructure (railways, terminals, etc.) stay in public hands. The private rail service providers can pay a fee for the rights to run trains on a certain route or routes, but the central government owns and maintains the track and stations.

This is the situation with air travel in the U.S. Private airlines with most airports and accompanying infrastructure owned by the government.
We have the same thing in say 80% of Europe - including UK, Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, Greece (tough they do not have private rail operators), Italy, Spain etc. Furthermore in 2010 every train operator from the EU shall be able to operate in the entire Union...
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Old June 29th, 2009, 10:02 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by davsot View Post
This is the most incredible thing I've ever seen. Hides the ugly (though debatable) of the rail tracks and gives it a high-tech feel. These projects really do surprise me they're so wonderful!
But this project is the best example for what is going wrong with railways in Germany! DB is only interested in building huge projects like this one (or more HSLs) and everything else seems unimportant! With the money of Stuttgart 21 it probably could be possible to renovate all stations of a Bundesland which would be a better investment than this huge waste of taxes!

Communal elections a few weeks ago showed what the people of Stuttgart think about it: the party "Die Grünen" gained so many voters (28% which is very much for them!) in the city because they are against this overdimensioned project!
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Old June 30th, 2009, 01:29 AM   #172
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So you're saying small, more local stations are falling due to lack of funding?

That's kind of like the debate we're having in the US, where political figures are fighting Obama's HSR plan because they see a better investment in reviving passenger rail travel in speeds around 100 MPH.

In part they're right, but I still want to see HSR in the US, so maybe we should have two bills? lol
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Old June 30th, 2009, 03:16 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by convalescence View Post
[…]
DB is only interested in building huge projects like this one (or more HSLs) and everything else seems unimportant! With the money of Stuttgart 21 it probably could be possible to renovate all stations of a Bundesland which would be a better investment than this huge waste of taxes!
[…]
Stuttgart 21 is the baby of the politicians in Stuttgart, so don't blame DB for it!
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Old June 30th, 2009, 01:17 PM   #174
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Stuttgart 21 is the baby of the politicians in Stuttgart, so don't blame DB for it!
Yup. Here in France they'd have created a dedicated HS station in the outer suburbs and subsequently ran only trains with end-station in Stuttgart into the centre of town. (The philosphy being that having to run through heavily urbanised areas in itself kills the idea of high speed...) But, in a federal country it is not possible to ride roughshot over local interests. And that can sometimes cost a looOOOT of money.
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Old June 30th, 2009, 02:51 PM   #175
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For a neighbour its really good news. It will speed up all the passenger transport tremendously. Vienna has a similar project, although the railwaystation will be overground new connection tunnels are build that create drive through situation, speeding up the trains that go via Vienna but don't end there dramatically. Not to start about the increase in capacity.
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Old July 1st, 2009, 03:57 PM   #176
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Stuttgart 21 is the baby of the politicians in Stuttgart, so don't blame DB for it!
All the "21"-Projects are DB projects at heart. They might have had considerable input from other sources, but DB snatched the input up willingly.
Most other 21-Projects only cost 7- or 8-figure sums though, and most had the DB components dropped by now anyway.
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Old July 2nd, 2009, 07:31 PM   #177
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I was in favour of Stuttgart 21 untril a few days ago, but after the elections in Germany and the idea that the Green Party gained so many votes just for their protest against this project, I started reading about Stuttgart 21 in different (!) sources.

I dont't like to say so (because I'm a huge fan of HSR), but it seems that I was quite wrong all the time. It seems that all the protests are quite reasonable. Astonishing enough that not only the Green Party (which is normally very much in favour of almost any rail project) fought against this idea, but also organisations like "Pro Bahn" (founded for the interests of rail passengers) and many other ecological and social organisations. They all do favour the HRS line to Ulm, but say it would be far cheaper, more reliable and not costing much time to connect it to an upgraded and improved "old" station.

As I said, I read much about the pros and cons of Stuttgart 21 in the last days, and dare to give a summary:


The main argument for Stuttgart - when all those project 21 ideas were developed in the early 90ies - was the huge waste of time when trains chance their direction. But as today, the rolling stock hat totally changed and the classic locomotive/car-combination is not in use anymore in passanger rail traffic, this argument has lost its power. Today, the regular stop of an Intercity Express in Stuttgart is 4 minutes. In Hannover, a station of similar size and importance, its 3 or 4 minutes, depending on the line. So even if Stuttgart 21 could provide train stops of 2 minutes or less, this option would not be considered because far too many people use to enter or leave the train here.


The second effect of Stuttgart 21 is the reduction of transit time to Mannheim and Ulm.
While in the Mannheim direction, a reduction of 2 minutes is realistic, in the Ulm direction the trains will even need more time to leave Stuttgart because of a second stop at Stuttgart Airport/Trade Fare Center. Point is that whenever the supporters of Stuttgart 21 tried to convince of their project, they included the HRS line Wendlingen-Ulm as well to make S21 sound faster. But this line is not depending on Stuttgart 21 and would as well work with the "old" Stuttgart station. Also, this project is favoured by everybody, including the Green Party, Pro Bahn and else. So it would onlybe fair to compare Stuttgart 21 + HRS to Ulm with Stuttgart Kopfbahnhof + HRS to Ulm. And here, the speed advantages of Stuttgart 21 are totally ruined by the Airport stop.

Now a solution might be to spare the Airport stop. But that station and that stop was one of the key arguments for drilling through the mountain instead of first using the old route through the valley.

In addition, it must be said that Stuttgart Airport is a regional one, far less important than Munich or Frankfurt, what means that only very few passengers from Mannheim, Ulm or even longer distances will take this direction to get their plane. So there's not much sense in connecting this airport to the long distance railway net.


Other technical arguments against S21 are:
- the tunnel from the station up to the airport is too steep. Trains going up will have a poor acceleration, trains going downwards will have to go with half speed because they have to stop at the bottom.
- For many directions, the way from/to the new station is longer than it is now, meaning losses of up to 5 minutes.
- In case there is a problem with the S-Bahn, the "regular" Central Station cannot be used as backup/bypass anymore, meaning that the whole S-Bahn-traffic will break down.
In case there is a problem in one of the tunnels, there will be no bypass connecting Stuttgart to the railway net. One mayor incident in one of the two tunnels, and the whole Central Station totally breaks down.
For trains that change their direction in Stuttgart, there is no efficient solution. They have to leave the station after a few minutes and will have to be brought back again later, because they otherwise would block one of the rare platform rails.


But the main argument against Stuttgart 21 is the fact that it is extremely costy. Even now, it is, although the calculation is very optimistic, and in future for sure it will become even far more expensive.

So, to keep the costs of Stuttgart 21 as low as possible (still too high for an easy agreement, but well...), the project reduces infrastructure whereever possible, with dangerous affects on future developement and reliability.

The new station will only have 8 tracks (today 16), with any kind of further expantion totally impossible, what seems to be quite okay today but might turn out not to be enough in 20 or 30 years. Also, it will only work as long as every train is on time, but might cause disasters when anything is not going well anymore, ehen trains have to wait for important connection trains.

Many crossings on the rails around Stuttgart 21 are supposed to the cheap version, without any grade separation. Also, some connection rails will be single tracked instead of double tracked.
This means conflicts are sure from the moment any train is delayed.

Now you could say that this could be solved by spending some more money, but that is exactly the main conflict point in the actual discussion: Bahn and polititians have an interest in talking the costs down, and that's what obviously happens here in the moment: in a few years, they might tell us that in order to increase the capacity or reliability, some crossings, single track passages or other "cheap" versions should be upgraded. So the costs will have to rise even more, or the alternative would be a huge white elephant.



The alternative - upgrading the old station - is explained on www.kopfbahnhof-21.de. The site has no international section, s I just want to give the link to one short movie showing the idea of an integrated timetable, providing shorter connection times for almost every rail passanger. A concept that is not possible in a reduced, 8-track station.

Last edited by IcyUrmel; July 2nd, 2009 at 07:59 PM.
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Old October 7th, 2009, 10:58 PM   #178
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From Frankfurt



TGV and ICE in Frankfurt am Main Hbf



Mulheim am Main



Frankfurt Sud

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Old December 10th, 2009, 04:44 PM   #179
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GERMANY | Station Redevelopment

Finally Stuttgart 21 is under way. Today they announced permission to start construction. It is sheduled to start construction in February. The 4.5 billion costly project will include the rearrangement of the main rail lines in Stuttgart.

The main objective of the project Stuttgart 21 is to
change the Stuttgart central train station from a dead
end station to a transit station. Therefore, an area of
roughly 250 acres in downtown Stuttgart would not be
used for railway purposes such as railway tracks and
maintenance stations but for business units and
apartments. It is expected, that retail, service and
entertainment businesses will create 24.000 jobs and
that living space for 11.000 people will be built in these
areas. In the course of the project cityrail tracks
underground will be relocated as well as streets, sewage
pipes and underground pipelines.
Through the change of the central station it is necessary
to completely rearrange roughly 56 km of railway and
cityrail tracks, whereas 28 km of these tracks run through
mostly mined tunnels.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21



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Old December 10th, 2009, 05:24 PM   #180
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my absolute favourite project in europe

my only beef is that they wont build a 360 kph line till münchen
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