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Old November 20th, 2013, 12:24 AM   #1881
Isek
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Munich 21? Chancelled
Maglev airport link? Chancelled

It is a pity to see so little development in one of the richest cities of the planet.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 12:37 AM   #1882
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Two higly debatable projects. I always failed to see the pros of having through long distance services in Munich, since it will always be an end point from many destinations (too far from Berlin, too far from Cologne, too far from Verona and Wien).

Before having a long distance tunnel in Munich, I think more German cities should have one.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 01:14 AM   #1883
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The greatest rail shame for Germany is to have ditched the Transrapid maglev technology and go for half-measures with conventional rail when it comes to high-speed rail.

With maglev, you'd be travelling TODAY in 2h30 between Frankfurt and Berlin.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 07:04 AM   #1884
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And what about underground platforms for high speed rail? Still no movement?
What for? Munich is the terminus of nearly all ICE/TGV/Railjet calling there. And always will be.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 07:57 AM   #1885
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When I said underground platforms for high speed rail, I meant Munich 21. Thanks anyway
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Old November 20th, 2013, 01:18 PM   #1886
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Deutsche Bahn has pretty much perfected the art of reversing direction and moving out of busy termini in a matter of 3-4 minutes, even in Munich, Frankfurt, or Leipzig, where passenger turnover alone would make most rail companies have much longer stopovers even if the station was two-directional. before spending billions on a rail tunnel under a major city, there are many more efficient ways of increasing travel times and comfort, such as completing the HSR projects in the vicinity. For Munich that would include the Stuttgart-Ulm HSR, the upgrade on the access lines to Innsbruck and Salzburg, a better or new connection to Pilzn and Prague, etc.
concerning the new hauptbahnhof: the Auer & Weber project above is the original prize-winner, but now DB has asked them to downsize the project, as their design would be too high above their cost expectations. It will most likely look less grand, just like Berlin's Hbf is not quite what the architect had hoped for. I wonder about the render for the surrounding streets, which appear here as empty concrete squares. Right now these are busy car and most especially tram thoroughfares. What is the plan here? Put trams underground? Divert them away from the station? Or scrap them all together? Or is this just a fanciful render which is not actually part of the proposed project?
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Old November 20th, 2013, 05:46 PM   #1887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilhem275 View Post
Two higly debatable projects. I always failed to see the pros of having through long distance services in Munich, since it will always be an end point from many destinations (too far from Berlin, too far from Cologne, too far from Verona and Wien).

Before having a long distance tunnel in Munich, I think more German cities should have one.
It is no contradiction to terminate almost all intercity services in a city without a railway terminus. As Berlin demonstrates rail services can be operated far more efficiently with through stations.

It would be favourable to extend the Nürnberg-Ingolstadt high-speed line to München via airport. Such a line would require a cross-city tunnel for instance.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 06:38 PM   #1888
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I agree on those advantages, and München could also benefit a lot from a double main stop for all main services. I just think it's not a priority, right now

About the HSL, I would keep both options (to Hbf and to Ost), in two different phases.
In phase one, building the line from Ingolstadt to the Airport, then routing it via Neufarhn as the S1. Of course with a serious upgrade of the Regensburg line. It would not be a great detour (+ ~6 km).
Phase two, city tunnel + HSL to Ost.

By keeping both ways, "wide region" services could be estabilished, as ICs Nürnberg - Salzburg or Prague - Stuttgart via both München airport and city. Just examples...
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Old November 20th, 2013, 07:42 PM   #1889
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Munich doesn't need a high speed tunnel. The Stammstrecke 2 is way, way more important for the city. A high speed tunnel could imo only make sense when the upgrate to Salzburg will be buildt. But neither a HSL Ingolstadt - Airport - Munich nor the upgrate of the Mühldorf-Salzburg line would require it, they can work without a tunnel just as well (probably a few minutes slower, but not that much that billions of euros for a tunnel would be a necessary investment). But that's an academic discussion as München 21 won't be buildt.

Regarding the trams: I guess they simply didn't want to destroy the impression by showing (realistic) traffic. There's simply no space to put trams underground around the Hauptbahnhof as there are already underground structures directly under the streets on all three sides of the station (S-Bahn on the north, U-Bahn on the south and east).
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Old November 21st, 2013, 12:42 AM   #1890
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I heard that some surface tracks will be retained in Stuttgart Hbf after the completion of the Stuttgart 21 project. Is that true? If not, 8 tracks seems too few to me, even if otherwise the project is very nice...
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Old November 21st, 2013, 06:01 AM   #1891
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Slightly off-topic, but it's interesting to see Stuttgart moving ahead with big projects like Stuttgart-21 while Munich doesn't do much.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 09:55 AM   #1892
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I heard that some surface tracks will be retained in Stuttgart Hbf after the completion of the Stuttgart 21 project. Is that true? If not, 8 tracks seems too few to me, even if otherwise the project is very nice...
I myself are absolutely against Stuttgart21. However I don't think that 8 tracks would be few as trains can (and will) terminate in other stations. The current surface level station had 16 tracks, but many trains terminate there and stay there for 5-10-20-30 minutes.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 10:37 AM   #1893
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Quote:
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I myself are absolutely against Stuttgart21.
Why's that?
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Old November 21st, 2013, 12:03 PM   #1894
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Quote:
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I myself are absolutely against Stuttgart21. However I don't think that 8 tracks would be few as trains can (and will) terminate in other stations. The current surface level station had 16 tracks, but many trains terminate there and stay there for 5-10-20-30 minutes.
Even if 8 tracks may handle enough trains by quantity, having few tracks might mean that less connections between trains will be possible.

(yes, Suburbanist, I know you think making connections longer or impossible would be a great improvement, no need to say that)
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Old November 21st, 2013, 12:11 PM   #1895
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I heard that some surface tracks will be retained in Stuttgart Hbf after the completion of the Stuttgart 21 project. Is that true?
Afaik it isn't. And it wouldn't make sense as DB wants to make urban development possible on the current railway areal.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 12:54 PM   #1896
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Then enough space to add more through tracks should be reserved. Maybe so as to have up to 12 tracks?

I like the idea behind the project (and the urban redevelopment is also ok), but not its implementation.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 12:55 PM   #1897
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Why's that?
Because it costs 7 billion euro with no, or only a few benefits.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 03:54 PM   #1898
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Stuttgart 21 will reduce travel times on through ICEs by almost 16 minutes (when the whole project is completed, not only the station). That is pretty impressive.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 04:08 PM   #1899
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Because it costs 7 billion euro with no, or only a few benefits.
It's pretty darn sexy though. (I'm a big fan of big infrastructure projects).
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 09:38 PM   #1900
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Before having a long distance tunnel in Munich, I think more German cities should have one.
Absolutely correct. My favorite has been Frankfurt21. This would have created a real advantage not only in saving time but also for the reliability of the ICE-network. It´s a core of the german network and linking Hbf. and Ostbahnhof would have created two clear corridors: Cologne-Frankfurt-Nuremberg and Hannover/Leipzig-Frankfurt-Mannheim-Stuttgart/Basel. Maybe even more important than Stuttgart21.

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