New Retail Quarter - Sevenstone

[AndrewC]

Sheffield certainly is tucked in between some big shopping destinations but I for one think that is a cop-out argument. Yes, we are close to Leeds, Manchester, Nottingham etc. But wait a minute. Isn't Leeds close to Sheffield and Manchester? Isn't Nottingham surrounded by Derby, Leicester, Sheffield? Isn't Manchester competing with Sheffield, Stoke, Lancashire towns,...LIVERPOOL? Aren't all these northern cities quite close together?! And don't they all seem to make their way along in retail and leisure life quite nicely thank you?

And hang on a second - yes, you can say, Meadowhall is successful therefore Sheffield city centre will suffer, and you'd be quite right. But why is Meadowhall successful if it's got Leeds to the north, Nottingham to the south, Manchester to...etc etc.?! Seems to me that Meadowhall shows there is a market for shopping in Sheffield, its just that Sheffield council are pussies who have let all the rest get away from them. And don't Leeds and Manchester survive pretty well with big shopping centres out of town? The business is there, stop pretending things don't happen in Sheffield CC because there are too many competing centres near by.

Like paul2412 says, the biggest mistake of Sheffield's past is not building the likes of Meadowhall and all the 'centres' that those other cities boast in Sheffield before they all came along.

[larven]

^I couldn't agree more.

[trader blade]

Originally Posted by AndrewC

Sheffield certainly is tucked in between some big shopping destinations but I for one think that is a cop-out argument. Yes, we are close to Leeds, Manchester, Nottingham etc. But wait a minute. Isn't Leeds close to Sheffield and Manchester? Isn't Nottingham surrounded by Derby, Leicester, Sheffield? Isn't Manchester competing with Sheffield, Stoke, Lancashire towns,...LIVERPOOL? Aren't all these northern cities quite close together?! And don't they all seem to make their way along in retail and leisure life quite nicely thank you?

And hang on a second - yes, you can say, Meadowhall is successful therefore Sheffield city centre will suffer, and you'd be quite right. But why is Meadowhall successful if it's got Leeds to the north, Nottingham to the south, Manchester to...etc etc.?! Seems to me that Meadowhall shows there is a market for shopping in Sheffield, its just that Sheffield council are pussies who have let all the rest get away from them. And don't Leeds and Manchester survive pretty well with big shopping centres out of town? The business is there, stop pretending things don't happen in Sheffield CC because there are too many competing centres near by.

Like paul2412 says, the biggest mistake of Sheffield's past is not building the likes of Meadowhall and all the 'centres' that those other cities boast in Sheffield before they all came along.

Good post, but there's something surely missing about starting points. For whatever reason, Sheffield city center was always a relatively poor shopping center. Leeds and Manchester had a good retail offering, whilst nestled in the middle of competition from other locations and an out of town shopping center. Sheffield never had. Getting off its' arse is a different proposition to maintaining the norm.

Most of the mistakes were probably made long it the past.

UTB

[larven]

Meadowhall is in Sheffield so clearly there was/is an opportunity to create a successful retail environment in the city.

On that score the centre fails miserably.

[Leeds No.1]

This is probably a controversial proposal, but might it be better, in the long term, to encourage development at Meadowhall and let Sheffield City Centre become geared towards non-retail uses (or at least, where there is retail, it's in niche markets)?

I'm not talking about expanding the shopping centre, but about a large scale redevelopment of the surrounding area, creating new streets and districts.

[trader blade]

Originally Posted by larven

Meadowhall is in Sheffield so clearly there was/is an opportunity to create a successful retail environment in the city.

On that score the centre fails miserably.

Absolutely so - so Meadowhall was a mistake of the past, from a city center shopping standpoint.

UTB

[Steely_Blade]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

This is probably a controversial proposal, but might it be better, in the long term, to encourage development at Meadowhall and let Sheffield City Centre become geared towards non-retail uses (or at least, where there is retail, it's in niche markets)?

I'm not talking about expanding the shopping centre, but about a large scale redevelopment of the surrounding area, creating new streets and districts.

I can see where your coming from and to some extent this is needed too.
Creating the centre as an office centre would perhaps be an idea.

But I think what your probably not realizing is that Sheffield has potential and what good is it having a city centre where on one aspect office and leisure are in high quality but retail is not.

Sheffield certainly does also need to look at retail in all it's variants. Getting something different in the centre would help visitors come as opposed to other cities.

For example Manchester is great all round for retail but the Afflecks building offers something different which is popular.
Right now the Nicholls building is showing potential and there is alot of room for expansion there too. Hopefully it will be successful.

I personally think that if the area that Sevenstone is set to be in is developed into a nice retail area and then the Moor is also developed well the retail offering will greatly improve and will have a knock on effect in the centre.

I also think that linking up Castle Market area with the canal better and hotels will also have a knock on effect.

[larven]

Originally Posted by trader blade

Absolutely so - so Meadowhall was a mistake of the past, from a city center shopping standpoint.

I'm tired of blame continually being aportioned to Meadowhall.

Fact is if Sheffield city centre was something like for shopping, I'd go instead of travelling further to Leeds or Meadowhall. As it is I've never made a single trip into Sheffield for shopping purposes alone when other, better options exist elsewhere. I also tend to spend on food and drink when I visit these places so you can just imagine the spending that the centre has missed out on over the years for not getting its act together with regard to retail.

[Irish Blood English Heart]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

This is probably a controversial proposal, but might it be better, in the long term, to encourage development at Meadowhall and let Sheffield City Centre become geared towards non-retail uses (or at least, where there is retail, it's in niche markets)?

I'm not talking about expanding the shopping centre, but about a large scale redevelopment of the surrounding area, creating new streets and districts.

I kinda agree, when you see the horrible huge behemoth that is Eldon Square swallowing up half of Newcastle City Centre I am really glad that Sheffield doesn't have a huge internal mall in the centre (though does have 2 within it's boundaries).

Hopefully the new NRQ plans will continue to stick to the outdoors shopping environment and being fully integrated into the city a-la a smaller Liverpool One rather than a horrible indoor centre like Eldon Sq or Frenchgate.

[Master_P]

I don't think there is any doubt that the powers that be have done a diabolical job in attracting any kind of retail investment to the city centre. They seem incapable of getting anything off the ground.

I think according the most recent figures the retail spend in Sheff City Centre is still around the £800 million per annum, which whillst not sparkling, doesn't look too bad considering what is on offer. I don't mean any disrespect to these places but I find it amazing that places like Bury and Wakefield have managed to attract investment while Sheffield City Centre has failed miserably

[trader blade]

Originally Posted by larven

I'm tired of blame continually being aportioned to Meadowhall.

Fact is if Sheffield city centre was something like for shopping, I'd go instead of travelling further to Leeds or Meadowhall. As it is I've never made a single trip into Sheffield for shopping purposes alone wen other, better options exist elsewhere. I also tend to spend on food and drink when I visit these places so you can just imagine the spending that the centre has missed out on over the years for not getting its act together with regard to retail.

Same here too. But it doesn't alter the fact that Meadowhall greatly hampered the development of the retail offering in the center. I'm no great shopper and I will never travel to another city to shop. But if I do shop, it's now Meadowhall rather than the city center. Same for just about everyone else I know. It's surely an inescapable fact that Meadowhall has adversely impacted the center - whether you're tired of it or not.

UTB

[larven]

How long are we going to keep blaming Meadowhall for the utter failure of the city and the powers that be to improve the retail offering in the centre?

Right now Sheffield is in the second or third tier with places like Bradford and its embarrassing 'hole in the ground' with regard to retail whilst the cities around us power ahead giving people what they want.

[Superfly]

Originally Posted by trader blade

Same here too. But it doesn't alter the fact that Meadowhall greatly hampered the development of the retail offering in the center. I'm no great shopper and I will never travel to another city to shop. But if I do shop, it's now Meadowhall rather than the city center. Same for just about everyone else I know. It's surely an inescapable fact that Meadowhall has adversely impacted the center - whether you're tired of it or not.

UTB

Although definitely true in the 90's, when Meadowhell was new, you have to note that the majority of centres that were impacted most by the proximity of it have now, more or less, got themselves back on their feet.

The exceptions are Rotherham (which despite extreme proximity still have the burgeoning Renaissance project) and Sheffield. It's not really an excuse any more, I feel.

[jozblade]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

This is probably a controversial proposal, but might it be better, in the long term, to encourage development at Meadowhall and let Sheffield City Centre become geared towards non-retail uses (or at least, where there is retail, it's in niche markets)?

I'm not talking about expanding the shopping centre, but about a large scale redevelopment of the surrounding area, creating new streets and districts.

That might not be a bad suggestion. In the long-run many middle-of-the-road type shops are going to suffer as internet shopping continues to grow.

Having a city centre full of niche shops could be a good step forward. These type of retailers haven't suffered a great deal recently as they offer a service that the internet is unable to provide.

Therefore, having a strategy positioned in this way could be good in the long-run. When cities with large amounts of 'High Street' shops start to close and then those units need to be filled. Having said this, I'm no retail analyst, so I could be way off. But it's the feeling I get of how things will pan out within the next 10 years.

[arepeejee]

Trouble is, those niche shops are often independents, who can't afford the 20, to 100k rents that the centre and slightly out have to offer.

[jozblade]

Yes definitely. Which is why more thought needs to be put into schemes.

[TakeMeHigher]

No. LESS thought needs to be put into schemes. The schemes are the problem and they always have been.

Sheffield city centre has been blighted by endless attempts by the city council to cosy up to large PLC developers who couldn't care less about Sheffield but promise the moon on a stick. Generations of councillors and officers have believed this nonsense and perused vainglorious projects that flatter their egos while ignoring privateer schemes by local owners and occupiers.

Sheffield has the city centre that it deserves.

[Crookes]

Originally Posted by AndrewC

Sheffield certainly is tucked in between some big shopping destinations but I for one think that is a cop-out argument. Yes, we are close to Leeds, Manchester, Nottingham etc. But wait a minute. Isn't Leeds close to Sheffield and Manchester? Isn't Nottingham surrounded by Derby, Leicester, Sheffield? Isn't Manchester competing with Sheffield, Stoke, Lancashire towns,...LIVERPOOL? Aren't all these northern cities quite close together?! And don't they all seem to make their way along in retail and leisure life quite nicely thank you?

And hang on a second - yes, you can say, Meadowhall is successful therefore Sheffield city centre will suffer, and you'd be quite right. But why is Meadowhall successful if it's got Leeds to the north, Nottingham to the south, Manchester to...etc etc.?! Seems to me that Meadowhall shows there is a market for shopping in Sheffield, its just that Sheffield council are pussies who have let all the rest get away from them. And don't Leeds and Manchester survive pretty well with big shopping centres out of town? The business is there, stop pretending things don't happen in Sheffield CC because there are too many competing centres near by.

Like paul2412 says, the biggest mistake of Sheffield's past is not building the likes of Meadowhall and all the 'centres' that those other cities boast in Sheffield before they all came along.

As shopping goes, biggest is best. And success breeds success. So if Nottingham has more/better shops than Derby then that balance will generally stay the same, and Nottingham will always suck "casual" shoppers from Derby.

I'm not sure that a "Meadowhall in the city centre" would have worked very well. Two of the reasons why Meadowhall works is the free parking and the motorway (which attracts people from across Yorkshire/Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire etc). Build it in the city centre and you'd not get free parking, nor would you attract those from further afield so easily. We might have ended up in the situation where the Metro Centre/Meadowhall/ Trafford Centre equivalent was built by the M1 nearer to Barnsley/ Chesterfield or somewhere else.

[trader blade]

Originally Posted by TakeMeHigher

No. LESS thought needs to be put into schemes. The schemes are the problem and they always have been.

Sheffield city centre has been blighted by endless attempts by the city council to cosy up to large PLC developers who couldn't care less about Sheffield but promise the moon on a stick. Generations of councillors and officers have believed this nonsense and perused vainglorious projects that flatter their egos while ignoring privateer schemes by local owners and occupiers.

Sheffield has the city centre that it deserves.

Turning current thinking on its' head, I think you're right.

UTB

[AndrewC]

Originally Posted by trader blade

Good post, but there's something surely missing about starting points. For whatever reason, Sheffield city center was always a relatively poor shopping center.

EH?!

Hard for me to say since I'm 26 years old and come from Norfolk but I thought Sheffield used to have a renowned retail based city centre? What about all those department stores? The massive markets? What happened to all those major plusses? Seems other cities held on to age old retailers - oops, Sheffield City Council demolished them all away again!

I take your point however that now the mistakes have been made and Sheffield is where it is, it's not easy to build it back up again.