New Retail Quarter - Sevenstone

[trader blade]

Originally Posted by AndrewC

EH?!

Hard for me to say since I'm 26 years old and come from Norfolk but I thought Sheffield used to have a renowned retail based city centre? What about all those department stores? The massive markets? What happened to all those major plusses? Seems other cities held on to age old retailers - oops, Sheffield City Council demolished them all away again!

I take your point however that now the mistakes have been made and Sheffield is where it is, it's not easy to build it back up again.

I'm early 40's and when I was younger, pre meadowhall, many people still went to Leeds, Manchester and Nottingham. If it was ever a decent retail destination it was before my time.

For all the debate, I dont actually think there's a lot of argument. The Center isn't what it should be, Meadowhall has dragged it down but that doesn't actually excuse all the mistakes that have subsequently been made. My point is only that had it been a better retail destination in the first place there would hve been enough "critical mass" to overpower subsequent poor decision making.

UTB

[Leeds No.1]

In which case clearly Meadowhall has attracted retailers that would probably not have opened in Sheffield Centre, and thus have no presence in Sheffield at all. This is why I suggest harnessing the fact retailers clearly favour opening at Meadowhall by taking a long term strategy of shifting the main commercial centre of Sheffield/Rotherham to a new district at Meadowhall, which is surely the 'crossroads' of South Yorkshire.

It's not a particularly groundbreaking concept- shifting the focus of commercial activity has worked in cities' favours throughout history, from Edinburgh's New Town to Canary Wharf. Sheffield Centre could become a sort of 'old town', not having to alter itself drastically and expensively to cater for the demands of modern retailers, but able to excel in providing top-quality units for niche markets and leisure.

If the high speed station is going to stop at Meadowhall over Sheffield centre too (which I accept it may not do), then it seems this idea might start to become reality.

[trader blade]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

In which case clearly Meadowhall has attracted retailers that would probably not have opened in Sheffield Centre, and thus have no presence in Sheffield at all. This is why I suggest harnessing the fact retailers clearly favour opening at Meadowhall by taking a long term strategy of shifting the main commercial centre of Sheffield/Rotherham to a new district at Meadowhall, which is surely the 'crossroads' of South Yorkshire.

It's not a particularly groundbreaking concept- shifting the focus of commercial activity has worked in cities' favours throughout history, from Edinburgh's New Town to Canary Wharf. Sheffield Centre could become a sort of 'old town', not having to alter itself drastically and expensively to cater for the demands of modern retailers, but able to excel in providing top-quality units for niche markets and leisure.

If the high speed station is going to stop at Meadowhall over Sheffield centre too (which I accept it may not do), then it seems this idea might start to become reality.

Interesting idea, and possibly a very good one. I still think there's enough inertia in the Sevenstone project, and peoples desrie, to mean the city center will remain a retail destination on the up, albeit from too low a base.

UTB

[TakeMeHigher]

Sevenstone is dead.

What we see now is a attempt to do something with the landholding that has been acquired by Hammerson over an extended period. It is an unplanned, piecemeal re-use, refurbish, renew scheme that is no better than what could have been achieved by the previous (non CPO'd) owners and operators with total retail continuity and no wholesale closure and demolition of entire swathes of the retail core.

I have some 15 year old sketches somewhere for a scheme that shells the Pinstone St buildings and puts modern sized units behind them, and other sketches of a similar age for a scheme to refurbish Cole Brothers existing store and extend it into the car park. Does that sound familiar?

[Leeds No.1]

Yes, there is enough potential for Sevenstone, but as we all know, Sevenstone will only bring Sheffield's retail offer up- it still won't be competing with Leeds, Manchester and perhaps Nottingham, and dare I say Meadowhall.

So once Sevenstone is complete, where does Sheffield go from there? I think this is potentially where the idea of making the area around Meadowhall the main CBD comes in.

[Steely_Blade]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

Yes, there is enough potential for Sevenstone, but as we all know, Sevenstone will only bring Sheffield's retail offer up- it still won't be competing with Leeds, Manchester and perhaps Nottingham, and dare I say Meadowhall.

So once Sevenstone is complete, where does Sheffield go from there? I think this is potentially where the idea of making the area around Meadowhall the main CBD comes in.

If Sevenstone and theMoor are redeveloped Sheffield's retail offering could be quite decent.

I don't think you give the centre enough credit to be honest. There are many, many visitors to the centre in the state it's in now. With a good redevelopment this would improve.

I feel it could compete with all of those cities because it's far enough away from them. It's also close enough for it to have an effect too.

Meadowhall will always be busy, it's an out of town shopping centre, but the opportunity for the centre is to attract some that go there instead more often.

Sevenstone is dead.

What we see now is a attempt to do something with the landholding that has been acquired by Hammerson over an extended period. It is an unplanned, piecemeal re-use, refurbish, renew scheme that is no better than what could have been achieved by the previous (non CPO'd) owners and operators with total retail continuity and no wholesale closure and demolition of entire swathes of the retail core.

I have some 15 year old sketches somewhere for a scheme that shells the Pinstone St buildings and puts modern sized units behind them, and other sketches of a similar age for a scheme to refurbish Cole Brothers existing store and extend it into the car park. Does that sound familiar?

To be honest if it's done well I don't see the issue with it. There will need to be some landscaping to make the area more of a mall. The proposed sq metre development even with the reduction in size wouldn't equate for this to all happen.

Depends on whether it's done well or not.

[trader blade]

Originally Posted by Steely_Blade

If Sevenstone and theMoor are redeveloped Sheffield's retail offering could be quite decent.

This. And then it will tempt people like me back in. And that will tempt other devlopers in. Possibly.



UTB

[matt99]

I understand that Sheffield's retail offering is insufficient and Sevenstone and the redevelopment of the Moor would greatly improve that, but I don't agree with the obsession with turning Sheffield's centre into a retail destination to rival Manchester or Leeds. The thing I love about Sheffield is that it's a 'habitable' city. I went to Birmingham recently and was shocked by how much it was overwhelmingly geared to shopping and shoppers, to the extent where I felt uncomforatble. Yes, Sheffield's retail offer (and in some areas, environment) needs improving, but on the whole I enjoy Sheffield's centre as a place to spend an afternoon more than many other major cities.

[trader blade]

Originally Posted by matt99

I understand that Sheffield's retail offering is insufficient and Sevenstone and the redevelopment of the Moor would greatly improve that, but I don't agree with the obsession with turning Sheffield's centre into a retail destination to rival Manchester or Leeds. The thing I love about Sheffield is that it's a 'habitable' city. I went to Birmingham recently and was shocked by how much it was overwhelmingly geared to shopping and shoppers, to the extent where I felt uncomforatble. Yes, Sheffield's retail offer (and in some areas, environment) needs improving, but on the whole I enjoy Sheffield's centre as a place to spend an afternoon more than many other major cities.

Another good point. I visited Manchester recently, expectig to be thoroughly depressed about how Sheffield measured up overall. For whatever reason, I wasn't really impressed. It's not all about retail, for most people.

UTB

[Aaronj09]

I'm sure Manchester City Centre is not just retail. Piccadilly gardens, anyone?

[arepeejee]

I felt the same about manchester when I first when just to go shopping there. But, I think a part of the problem is their shops aren't in a central hub they're scattered about off down streets you think twice about.

Now I know my way round there like the back of my hand, I can say that for me its a lot better than Leeds, or Birmingham - other cities I know quite well, and perhaps a smidge better than Liverpool post-Liverpool 1.

[robw]

Originally Posted by TakeMeHigher

Sevenstone is dead.

What we see now is a attempt to do something with the landholding that has been acquired by Hammerson over an extended period. It is an unplanned, piecemeal re-use, refurbish, renew scheme that is no better than what could have been achieved by the previous (non CPO'd) owners and operators with total retail continuity and no wholesale closure and demolition of entire swathes of the retail core.

I have some 15 year old sketches somewhere for a scheme that shells the Pinstone St buildings and puts modern sized units behind them, and other sketches of a similar age for a scheme to refurbish Cole Brothers existing store and extend it into the car park. Does that sound familiar?

TakeMeHigher, as ever, a voice speaking clearly over the white noise.

[Steely_Blade]

Originally Posted by arepeejee

I felt the same about manchester when I first when just to go shopping there. But, I think a part of the problem is their shops aren't in a central hub they're scattered about off down streets you think twice about.

Now I know my way round there like the back of my hand, I can say that for me its a lot better than Leeds, or Birmingham - other cities I know quite well, and perhaps a smidge better than Liverpool post-Liverpool 1.

Manchester has a great deal going for it as a destination.
It's a bigger city, metro wise it's the 3rd biggest in the Country and I'd personally say it's better than Birmingham

Sheffield can't really compete with Manchester, I do feel it could compete better with Leeds and Nottingham though. It doesn't need to have the same offerings, it needs some though that are.
In the centre we need your House Of Fraser's, bigger Next, Topman etc and a few high end brand stores like Ted Baker etc. Also I see that Urban Outfitters are opening in Meadowhall, they too would have been a good addition to the centre.

After these sort of retailers, for me it's all about getting in a blend of retailers that offer different things. This doesn't mean they should be chain stores or not. Independent the better really.

Developing the Sevenstone area and theMoor to better shopping area's I think will benefit the centre. It will hopefully spur on a few other developers to think about area's such as Pinstone Street where the Cooplands side of the road buildings just don't sit right.

One thing I do think Sheffield really succeeds in is it's public spaces and landscaping of area's such as Peace Gardens, Millenium Square, Leopold Sq, Devonshire Green, Fargate, Sheffield Station, Walk up to Hallam Uni from Station etc. I also think that area's such as Castle Square and Fitzalan Square have potential. along with the whole area down at Castle Market area.

If I had a trillion pounds spare to spend on the city I reckon I'd do a decent job!

[monitoraudio]

I'd like to see sevenstone succeed as much as the next man, but I don't half find this city centre competing based what mega-chain is on offer a bit cringeworthy. Is this what it has come down to - the American way as it were? I'm from derby but have live in Sheffield for 10 years - I find Sheffield city centre a lot more soulful as it currently stands.

And to put an independent spin on it my mum loves getting the train up from derby for some shopping in the centre but hates meadowhall; and she loves shopping!

[Steely_Blade]

Originally Posted by monitoraudio

I'd like to see sevenstone succeed as much as the next man, but I don't half find this city centre competing based what mega-chain is on offer a bit cringeworthy. Is this what it has come down to - the American way as it were? I'm from derby but have live in Sheffield for 10 years - I find Sheffield city centre a lot more soulful as it currently stands.

And to put an independent spin on it my mum loves getting the train up from derby for some shopping in the centre but hates meadowhall; and she loves shopping!

I think for a city the size of Sheffield it lacks enough of your decent chain shops.

As I said no House of Fraser, and not enough other stores too that are in many other centre's. But what makes centre's better are the independent stores or one's that are more exclusive.

[Leeds No.1]

Originally Posted by Steely_Blade

I do feel it could compete better with Leeds and Nottingham though. It doesn't need to have the same offerings, it needs some though that are.

It could just about compete with Leeds and Nottingham in their current state if Sevenstone was delivered. However, the reality is that Leeds will be opening Trinity in 2013, which is going to push it back above Manchester in the rankings. Eastgate is increasingly looking like it will be delivered too. Even if Sevenstone started tomorrow, it couldn't open before 2013. How is Sheffield going to compete then? Especially if HS2 in the long term allows Sheffield shoppers to get to Leeds (and London/Birmingham I suppose), really quickly.

So that all sounds rather negative for Sheffield, but it's true. Which is why I think there needs to be a rethink of Sheffield's long term strategy. Yes, build to meet the local needs- but is it realistic to think Sheffield City Centre will ever be in the premier league of UK shopping destinations? Meadowhall has a better chance of that- but more importantly, Sheffield has an opportunity to be top of the league in entertainment/leisure if this was encouraged rather than Sevenstone-esque retail developments so it can rival Leeds/Manchester.

In the centre we need your House Of Fraser's, bigger Next, Topman etc and a few high end brand stores like Ted Baker etc. Also I see that Urban Outfitters are opening in Meadowhall, they too would have been a good addition to the centre.

And how exactly do you propose these will be delivered, especially as many shops have already opened at Meadowhall so are unlikely to want to open in Sheffield Centre?

Originally Posted by trader blade

It's not all about retail, for most people.

Really? I don't buy this. British cities thrive on retail, because for most people, it is all about retail. It's sad, and it's shallow, but true.

[Steely_Blade]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

It could just about compete with Leeds and Nottingham in their current state if Sevenstone was delivered. However, the reality is that Leeds will be opening Trinity in 2013, which is going to push it back above Manchester in the rankings. Eastgate is increasingly looking like it will be delivered too. Even if Sevenstone started tomorrow, it couldn't open before 2013. How is Sheffield going to compete then? Especially if HS2 in the long term allows Sheffield shoppers to get to Leeds (and London/Birmingham I suppose), really quickly.

So that all sounds rather negative for Sheffield, but it's true. Which is why I think there needs to be a rethink of Sheffield's long term strategy. Yes, build to meet the local needs- but is it realistic to think Sheffield City Centre will ever be in the premier league of UK shopping destinations? Meadowhall has a better chance of that- but more importantly, Sheffield has an opportunity to be top of the league in entertainment/leisure if this was encouraged rather than Sevenstone-esque retail developments so it can rival Leeds/Manchester.



And how exactly do you propose these will be delivered, especially as many shops have already opened at Meadowhall so are unlikely to want to open in Sheffield Centre?



Really? I don't buy this. British cities thrive on retail, because for most people, it is all about retail. It's sad, and it's shallow, but true.

Leeds won't come close to Manchester's city centre offering in my opinion, even after these developments. Manchester is a much bigger city with a great deal to offer.

By compete, I don't necessarily mean to truly compete in terms of footfall. But more so to compete in terms of actually being a centre that more come to.
Leeds is a bigger city in terms of metro area, it gets shoppers from York and North Yorkshire, West Yorkshire and South Yorkshire. Sheffield should be getting more from South Yorkshire peeps in general and look to build from there. It should also be getting more from Meadowhall shoppers.
I know very few that would rather shop at Meadowhall, but the simple fact is that quite a few shops that are there that there isn't a similar offering in town.

Having been to Leeds on a few occasions the retail offering in Leeds is decent. But it's not fantastic and I wasn't overly impressed with the way the centre is laid out, nor did I feel it was lightyears ahead of Sheffield in terms of shops. It is though still ahead by a distance!

If you take retail out of the equation Sheffield as a city has quite a bit going for it. Theatre's, Arena, Sporting facilities such as Ponds Forge, Don Valley, EIS, Ice Sheffield, decent nightlife, restaurants, Peak District on doorstep, nice public spaces, parks, cinema's, and an abundance of office space and quite a bit of that is now decent and modern too. Sheffield also has a few good museums and gallieries but I'd say more would be beneficial.

Don't put Sheffield down too much in retail too, I'd be quite happy with the redvelopments I've mentioned if they are done well.

Also have you been to Sheffield city centre?
We already have Next's, Topshops and the lark. But they could do with bigger central stores like what H&M, River Island have now. Zara's were looking to move into Sevenstone, in fact quite a few that are at meadowhall were (Which was a touch disappointing) but also a few that weren't.
As I said we could do with a House of Fraser, and some stores that most centre's have. After that getting stores that are different is the port of call if possible.

What I want though is to have the centre improved upon for retail to the extent it's in the top 20 places in the UK. No disrespect to places like Leicester, Reading and Milton Keynes but Sheffield should be above in the rankings not well below.

[Leeds No.1]

Originally Posted by Steely_Blade

Leeds won't come close to Manchester's city centre offering in my opinion, even after these developments. Manchester is a much bigger city with a great deal to offer.

By compete, I don't necessarily mean to truly compete in terms of footfall. But more so to compete in terms of actually being a centre that more come to.

Time will tell for your first statement- remember that for a long time, Leeds was above Manchester in the retail rankings- only slipping behind somewhere around 2005/2006 (Experian). I hate to say that I think Sheffield will have an even tougher ride in the coming years if it tries to compete on retail- which is precisely why it shouldn't. Leave that job to Meadowhall.

The second part you've essentially said yourself. It doesn't matter how big a city is; what matters is how many people you can attract. Out of town shopping centres have a population of 0 but attract millions of shoppers annually.

Originally Posted by Steely_Blade

Also have you been to Sheffield city centre?
We already have Next's, Topshops and the lark. But they could do with bigger central stores like what H&M, River Island have now. Zara's were looking to move into Sevenstone

Many, many times- but never to shop. Last time was in September, when I was visiting some friends.

Zara could move into the centre, but Zara is very different from something like Urban Outfitters which tend to only have one store per city region. To retain brand integrity, they want a select few stores in key locations that people will travel to.

Originally Posted by Steely_Blade

What I want though is to have the centre improved upon for retail to the extent it's in the top 20 places in the UK.

I expect Sheffield will, at some point, move into the top 20 places to shop in the UK. I think it's wishful thinking that it will be able to compete with Leeds & Manchester though- at least with it's current plans, which is why I suggested building on the success of Meadowhall by creating a new CBD there.

[larven]

Originally Posted by robw

TakeMeHigher, as ever, a voice speaking clearly over the white noise.

I am still waiting for TMH to post something positive.

Thankfully some of his predictions haven't come true, like the complete demolition of Parkhill.

[Aaronj09]

Well Leeds will be above Manchester in retail rankings when Trinity opens in 2013 and will move up even further when Eastgate is finished. So by then the only store Leeds won't have that Manchester does, is Selfridges.

Sheffield has a long, long, long way to go. As No.1 says maybe it shouldn't even bother, focus on something else, such as your excellent public spaces.