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Old February 19th, 2007, 05:35 AM   #201
Jean Luc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylorhoge View Post
Well Im srry I was a little drunk so I may have condricted myself.
However yes it is apart of it but most writers and artist find it unattractive at least from what I have seen and the guys in London RIP im srry for what I said before about them.However to greg you cant stop graffiti and that even i you do stop your city from doing that it wont bother me I like what I do becuase it defies mainstream and I like art and the fact Im doing it with a spraypaint can and thats my opinion so whether you like it or not thats the way it is.
Well then the only way to stop you is to arrest you and throw you in jail where you belong, you scum.

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Originally Posted by Tubeman
Oh, and yet another suspected writer got squished by one of our trains at Barking last night, that's three fatalities in a month and yet another traumatised driver. Good job young man... well bloody done! You've wrecked a driver's life and that of your family for the sake of some shitty tags which will be buffed off before they even hit passenger service.
Well said.
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Old February 19th, 2007, 05:41 AM   #202
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Okay then do it then..... Like I said before I dont care what people think Ill do it and threatining over the internet is really imature
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Old February 19th, 2007, 05:45 AM   #203
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Again, not a threat, but don't be surprised if one day your face is full of paint... or your face is behind bars.
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Old February 19th, 2007, 05:49 AM   #204
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how it will it be full of paint it comes out of a spray can
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Old February 19th, 2007, 07:27 AM   #205
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Spray the can in one location (like a cup) and the paint will add up. Finish the whole can, and you'll have some paint in your cup.
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Old February 19th, 2007, 12:58 PM   #206
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Well obviously it's a great idea to go around smashing windows of those cars. Obviously. Or maybe just spray paint them? Yea, thats a great idea. I don't like it, so I am going to show it by vandalizing it.
Now, you totally misunderstood my point. I don't like cars and adverts, but I'm not smashing them. I just think public discussion is needed.

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Originally Posted by xAKxRUSx View Post
Public property belongs to everyone.
Yeah, it certainly does. But why is it owned by advertising companies then?

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Originally Posted by Jean Luc View Post
With public property like trains and railway stations these vandals do not receive permission from the owners (the public) before committing their acts
Do you really think that public property like trains and railway stations are now owned by the public? Hell no. Average citizens have no possibilities to affect legally how public city space should be like.

And I'm not talking about just graffiti here, but all sorts of art. Graffiti is just the most radical antithesis to all that advertising. I'd be so happy to see photo galleries, all kinds of paintings, drawings, etc. in public city space - something that is made by citizens, not by advertising companies.

Oh, heck I hate the atmosphere of these discussions. I'm neither smashing others property here nor wishing to jail those who disagree with me.
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Old February 19th, 2007, 05:00 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xAKxRUSx View Post
Spray the can in one location (like a cup) and the paint will add up. Finish the whole can, and you'll have some paint in your cup.
That takes a while for that to happen. Well said Jape I dont do it for the crime I do it for the art.
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Old February 20th, 2007, 01:01 AM   #208
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http://www.qgazette.com/news/2006/11...tures/002.html

Graffiti Vandal Arrest Hailed
BY RICHARD GENTILVISO

Oliver Siandre, aka Kiko, is going to jail. As the 114th Police Precinct announced its 103rd graffiti arrest, leading the city, it was also announced that the notorious graffiti vandal has pleaded guilty to 28 counts of criminal mischief for spraying his Kiko tag on some 50 sites in Astoria. The announcements were made at the October meeting of the 114th Precinct Community Council.

Siandre took a plea deal on October 19 in Queens Supreme Court. Judge Barry Kron sentenced him to six months in prison and a fine of $25,000 for the damage he caused. Siandre turned down an earlier plea deal for one to three years in prison. He was facing up to seven years if convicted.

"We were calling for a little bit more jail time," said Andrew Moesel, communications director for Councilmember Peter Vallone Jr. However, according to the district attorney's office, more jail time would have made Siandre eligible for parole with restitution, Moesel said.

"[Siandre] will be in jail for four to six months, and he will have to pay back the community," said Moesel. "Hopefully, this will set a good precedent." Vallone Jr. led the fight to prosecute Kiko. "For someone like Kiko who did literally thousands of dollars of damage, we think he deserves jail time," said Moesel.

Captain Christopher Tamola, executive officer of the 114th Precinct, said Siandre was also sentenced to four and one half years probation. "He can be sent back [to prison] if he violates his probation," Tamola said.

Tamola, in reporting that the precinct had just made the 103rd graffiti arrest so far this year, said there have also been 190 graffiti cleanups this year. He credited the 114th Civilian Observation Patrol and Jim and Barbara Pollock. "They are our point people in the graffiti effort," he said.
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Old February 20th, 2007, 04:11 AM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jape View Post
Now, you totally misunderstood my point. I don't like cars and adverts, but I'm not smashing them. I just think public discussion is needed.
No, I understood your point, I was just making another point by making an extreme example. Just so I can get the point across clearer


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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
Yeah, it certainly does. But why is it owned by advertising companies then?
Because they pay obnoxious amounts of money to put those ads up... and if you read my previous posts, you'll see that part of that money goes to the government... which in turn goes to schools, etc.

And yes. We might want to restrict some advertising space... maybe limit it. We should discuss this.

But you also need to remember that no one is making you buy the products. You can just simply ignore it.

But yea, maybe discussion is needed. Maybe we should limit the amount of ads per some area... etc.


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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
Do you really think that public property like trains and railway stations are now owned by the public? Hell no. Average citizens have no possibilities to affect legally how public city space should be like.
Well actually, the public has a lot of say. There are neighborhood meetings, public hearings, polls, votes, etc. You just have to get involved.

Whether or not the public has enough time, or cares, is another thing.

But one this is for certain, is that most people dislike graffitti and don't want to see it.

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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
And I'm not talking about just graffiti here, but all sorts of art. Graffiti is just the most radical antithesis to all that advertising. I'd be so happy to see photo galleries, all kinds of paintings, drawings, etc. in public city space - something that is made by citizens, not by advertising companies.
More art, actual art, would be great. Like something like Moscow's Metro or Athens Metro... thats really amazing.
But that costs a lot of money.

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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
Oh, heck I hate the atmosphere of these discussions. I'm neither smashing others property here nor wishing to jail those who disagree with me.
I didn't mean to offend you, or say that you go around smashing property. I gave that example to help bring my point across. Please try reading it again, and see if you can understand the point I was putting across. Maybe I could have worded it better... but hopefully you can see what I was saying now.
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Old February 20th, 2007, 09:50 AM   #210
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Vandals are useless, worthless, good-for-nothing low-lifes who think they have the god given right to do whatever they like, regardless of what anyone else thinks, and not be held responsible for it. This is the same kind of thinking that young children have - selfish, self-indulgent, self-centred, which is what vandals are. Children grow out of this but vandals maintain this mentality thanks to the army of do-gooders who make up excuses for their appalling behaviour.

Last edited by Jean Luc; February 20th, 2007 at 12:33 PM.
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Old February 20th, 2007, 10:27 AM   #211
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Quote:
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Yeah, it certainly does. But why is it owned by advertising companies then?
They don't own public space. They lease it for a certain amount of time, which they pay for. When that time is up, the ads are removed. There is a difference between owning and leasing, one that you're obviously unaware of.

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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
Do you really think that public property like trains and railway stations are now owned by the public? Hell no.
Public authorities operate trains, stations etc on our behalf, and they have never given permission for any of the (illegal) grafitti to be done, which is what makes it illegal.

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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
Average citizens have no possibilities to affect legally how public city space should be like.
Really?? Just shows how ignorant you are. Citizens in cities the world over have been successful in preventing developments from going ahead that they didn't want e.g. freeways, high-rise buildings, demolition of old historic buildings. Sometimes they used illegal means, other times legal ones e.g. the ballot box.

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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
I'd be so happy to see photo galleries, all kinds of paintings, drawings, etc. in public city space
Which would probably be vandalised in short order. There are murals (legal wall paintings) here in Sydney which have been grafittied, requiring them to be cleaned. As a result, they are now covered in a transparent grafitti-resistant coating, in order to protect them i.e. allow easy cleaning without damaging the mural. Other things like sculptures and statues have also been vandalsied. So much for vandals respecting public art.

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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
Oh, heck I hate the atmosphere of these discussions.
Then nick off.

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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
I'm neither smashing others property here nor wishing to jail those who disagree with me.
Jail is appropriate punishment for perpetrators of serious damage, or repeat offenders.
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Old February 20th, 2007, 02:18 PM   #212
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Jape hates the atmosphere because of people like you, Jean Luc, who can't disguss things without insulting others....

Edit: I have a question for you guys....If I buy an advertisement space on a tram, for example, and paint it in graffiti style, would it still be an ugly and bad thing to do?
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Old February 20th, 2007, 02:58 PM   #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xAKxRUSx View Post
Because they pay obnoxious amounts of money to put those ads up... and if you read my previous posts, you'll see that part of that money goes to the government... which in turn goes to schools, etc.
At least here money to schools, public healthcare, etc. come from taxpayers taxes, not from advertising companies. Sure they pay for their advertising space, but it should be citizens who decide, not money.

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Originally Posted by xAKxRUSx View Post
But you also need to remember that no one is making you buy the products. You can just simply ignore it.
Yes, but isn't it pity that public space is full of things that are worth ignoring? Wouldn't it be better if it was full of pieces of art, something that awakes thoughts and feelings?

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Originally Posted by xAKxRUSx View Post
But yea, maybe discussion is needed. Maybe we should limit the amount of ads per some area... etc.
We definitely should. I don't know about other cities, but here the amount of adverts has increased constantly. For example in one metro station a big legally made mural has been covered with a Coca Cola banner - and that's not an exceptional case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xAKxRUSx View Post
Well actually, the public has a lot of say. There are neighborhood meetings, public hearings, polls, votes, etc. You just have to get involved.

Whether or not the public has enough time, or cares, is another thing.
Yes. People should take care of our everyday environment. I know that sounds naive, but that's just how it is.

And I dare to state that modern day consumption culture doens't encourage us to care about such things.

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Originally Posted by xAKxRUSx View Post
But one this is for certain, is that most people dislike graffitti and don't want to see it.
It depends. At least here legally made murals have been liked, even among those who otherwise don't like graffiti and taggings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xAKxRUSx View Post
More art, actual art, would be great. Like something like Moscow's Metro or Athens Metro... thats really amazing.
But that costs a lot of money.
It doesn't have to be like in Moscow or Athens. Some students from art-related schools may do it for free. Also, when checking some websites where people may publish their self-made art, it easy to see that our world is full of talented "underground artists" whose work should get more public attention. Metro stations, pedestrian tunnels etc. aren't certainly the worst places for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by xAKxRUSx View Post
I didn't mean to offend you, or say that you go around smashing property. I gave that example to help bring my point across. Please try reading it again, and see if you can understand the point I was putting across. Maybe I could have worded it better... but hopefully you can see what I was saying now.
Ok.

@ Jean Luc: It's not forbidden to listen what others are trying to say - even if their views differ from yours. That's what people call conversation.

Last edited by Jape; February 20th, 2007 at 03:05 PM.
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Old February 21st, 2007, 02:21 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebasepoiss View Post
....

Edit: I have a question for you guys....If I buy an advertisement space on a tram, for example, and paint it in graffiti style, would it still be an ugly and bad thing to do?
Commercial advertising that looks like graffiti has been done:



The major difference between such ads and actual graffiti is that the property owner has given permission and is being compensated. This is one of the things that I don't understand about the creators of graffiti. Why would they risk arrest when they could actually get paid to do similar work? Don't try to tell me that actual graffiti is any more artistic than advertising. It takes a lot more talent and effort to make a decent looking ad than most of the graffiti tags that I have seen.

The following article is about a Sony ad campaign that attempted to mimic graffiti:

http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,...w=wn_tophead_1

Sony Draws Ire With PSP Graffiti

By Ryan Singel| Also by this reporter
02:00 AM Dec, 05, 2005

Seeking to market its handheld game device to hip city dwellers, Sony has hired graffiti artists in major urban areas to spray-paint buildings with simple, totemic images of kids playing with the gadget. But the guerrilla marketing gambit appears to be drawing scorn from some of the street-savvy hipsters it's striving to win over.

Coming on the heels of widely publicized news that Sony music CDs infected customers' computers with security-hole-inducing spyware, the campaign for the PlayStation Portable is being derided on the internet as an attempt to buy the credibility of street art.

In San Francisco, critics have expressed their disapproval by adding some spray paint of their own to the Sony ads. On a wall outside a beer garden in San Francisco's bohemian Mission District that caters to motorcyclists and bike messengers, someone spray-painted over every character, adding the commentary, "Advertising directed at your counter-culture."

Outside Casa Maria, a small Mission bodega, someone wrote, "Get out of my city," added the word "Fony" to the graffiti and penned a four-line ditty slamming Sony.

Other cities targeted in the campaign include New York, Chicago, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Los Angeles and Miami, according to Sony spokeswoman Molly Smith.

The advertising, based on original artwork commissioned by Sony's ad agency, features a collection of dizzy-eyed urban kids playing with the PSP as if it were a skateboard, a paddle or a rocking horse, but doesn't include the word Sony or PSP anywhere.

When asked about the criticism, Smith countered that art is subjective and that both the content and the medium dovetailed with Sony's belief that the PSP is a "disrupter product" that lets people play games, surf the internet and watch movies wherever they want.

"With PSP being a portable product, our target is what we consider to be urban nomads, people who are on the go constantly," Smith said.

Floyd Hayes, the head creative director at Cunning Work, which specializes in nontraditional marketing campaigns such as promoting a Sci-Fi Channel TV show about the Bermuda triangle through reward signs (.jpg) for a missing sock, doesn't disapprove of the campaign, though he thinks the seemingly hypnotized kids in the artwork might send the wrong message about the PSP's thrill factor.

But Hayes doesn't think Sony has crossed any lines with the faux street art. "Sony and PSP have every right to use this type of media," Hayes said. "They have done it for (a) very long time very successfully and spoke the language of the streets without being patronizing."

Piers Fawkes, who runs the IF blog that focuses on new currents in marketing, also liked the campaign.

"It's a cheeky wink toward a savvy audience who are already familiar with the product," Fawkes said. "It's reflective of modern approach to marketing. The creative classes are sick of marketing when done badly or blandly, but when it's done in (an) intelligent manner, we appreciate it."

Fawkes questioned whether the backlash was very widespread.

"I wonder if that's a San Francisco phenomenon," Fawkes said. "I know there's certain mindset there."

Sony isn't the first corporation to use graffiti and stencils to market its products. In 2001, IBM paid Chicago and San Francisco more than $120,000 in fines and clean-up costs after its advertising agency spray-painted Linux advertisements on the cities' sidewalks.

Unlike IBM, however, Sony says it's paying businesses and building owners for the right to graffiti their walls.

Casa Maria was paid $100 for two weeks' use of its wall, according to co-owner Mario Arana.
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Old February 21st, 2007, 03:35 AM   #215
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At least here money to schools, public healthcare, etc. come from taxpayers taxes, not from advertising companies. Sure they pay for their advertising space, but it should be citizens who decide, not money.
Well yes, they come from taxpayers too. I meant that part of that money that comapanies pay to advertise, go to schools and stuff too. A city leases the space (if its public property) and collects the money. What does it do with the money? It uses it for public programs such as schools, etc. That and the city collects a tax on the money that the company paid. So thats more money. Do you see what I am trying to say?

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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
We definitely should. I don't know about other cities, but here the amount of adverts has increased constantly. For example in one metro station a big legally made mural has been covered with a Coca Cola banner - and that's not an exceptional case.
Yes, that is a problem. And unfortunatly its all too common. There should be some sort of laws preventing this.

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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
It depends. At least here legally made murals have been liked, even among those who otherwise don't like graffiti and taggings.
I have no problems with murals. None. If the city allows a spot, sure why not.


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Originally Posted by Jape View Post
It doesn't have to be like in Moscow or Athens. Some students from art-related schools may do it for free. Also, when checking some websites where people may publish their self-made art, it easy to see that our world is full of talented "underground artists" whose work should get more public attention. Metro stations, pedestrian tunnels etc. aren't certainly the worst places for them.
That works too. Again, I think my comment from above covers this point too.
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Old February 21st, 2007, 04:09 AM   #216
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Vandals don't care what others think about them and what they do, and I don't care what they think about me. If you grafitti someone else's property without getting their permission first then that is criminal damage and is illegal. Trying to justify it by calling it art is just a pathetic excuse. Pure and simple.
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Old February 21st, 2007, 06:46 AM   #217
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Agreed
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Old February 21st, 2007, 07:40 AM   #218
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I like legal murals but sometimes stuff looks good even if it is done illegaly
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Old February 21st, 2007, 07:50 AM   #219
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Quote:
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I like legal murals but sometimes stuff looks good even if it is done illegaly
Yup some illegal murals look nice. I'm a graf writer myself but the thing is, if writers would do their pieces illegally, they're better doing it on abandoned buildings or the side walls of industrial complexes. Definitely not on houses, churches or any place of worship or monuments or landmarks.
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Old February 22nd, 2007, 04:04 PM   #220
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I think this are the first Dutch trains in this topic,











[IMG]http://www.**************/bilder/30356.jpg[/IMG]








*And a clean train*

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