Fourth Grace

gobshoite · January 26th, 2006, 02:37 PM

The lack of any real outrage from the general public to the lottery fund decision on the X building would suggest they were at best ambivalent to this project. ( I personaly liked it )

If this does not go ahead, what do you think of the idea of a water feature of immense proportions in its place?

Something on the scale of the one in Geneva would be a great tourist attraction and would sit well alongside the plans for the liner berth/canal link.

I believe this would be looked on favourably by the lottery board as it would provide the new attraction we missed out on during the millenium handouts.

Not sure about the design but maybe a statue of of the leader of the heritage lobby pissing on the city would be appropriate!

Tony Sebo · January 26th, 2006, 02:45 PM

I have always felt that since we are no longer proposing a scheme that is genuinely world class then it should be developed as open space, with the type of features you mention.

There was a great project for a lunar tidal clock/massive art instalation initially proposed for the Left bank a few years ago that we suggested would be a good alternative when the Cloud was killed off. Something like that wold be great.

gobshoite · January 26th, 2006, 04:50 PM

Tony,
I could'nt agree more. There seems to be a desperation to put something in that space as a face saving policy as opposed to anything based on architechtural merit or need.

I actually think the museum is a brilliant idea and an area (with some great people in charge) in which we are for once ahead of the field.

I would love to see this proceed but possibly on a less sensitive site.

As regards the water feature idea, you can imagine how great it could be but our illustrious leaders would probably appoint Charlie Dimmock as the prefered designer.

People may call me cynical but that's people for you!

Gareth · January 26th, 2006, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gobshoite

Tony, I could'nt agree more. There seems to be a desperation to put something in that space as a face saving policy as opposed to anything based on architechtural merit or need.

You've hit the nail on the head there, gobshoite.

richie1878 · January 26th, 2006, 09:08 PM

I'm still pissed off that the foster design never came to fruition. From the renders I have seen, it looked magnificent.

Martin G · January 27th, 2006, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by richie1878

I'm still pissed off that the foster design never came to fruition. From the renders I have seen, it looked magnificent.

That's probably cos that pile of utter shite that was the fucking Alsop one (aka the cowpat) ran away with all the plaudits and was such a huge distraction by virtue of its irredeemable ugliness it diverted people's attention away from the other more worthy contenders - that's the way I look at it any rate.

Pobbie · January 27th, 2006, 04:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gobshoite

Tony,
I could'nt agree more. There seems to be a desperation to put something in that space as a face saving policy as opposed to anything based on architechtural merit or need.

Hence The Cloud.

I remember the huge feeling of relief by everyone around me when that steaming pile of horse shit was scrapped. Liverpool truly dodged the bullet: it's as though a Category Five hurricane was headed for the city and made an abrupt turn at the last minute. What's more, it was a kick in the teeth to that overblown, pretentious tosser Will Alsop, who as ever tried to play the starring role of visionary genius solely responsible for CoC2008. Then he cried like a big baby when it was scrapped, trying to put part of the blame on ordinary Liverpudlians like you and me i.e. don't know what's good for them. What he failed to realise of course is that the vast majority of us didn't want that visual abomination desecrating the lovely waterfront. Alsop is nothing but a pious, pompous charlatan who somehow believes it is his Divine Right to make everyone live in giant teddy bears and such. He tried to pretend that his ludicrously overblown shiny big haemorrhoid of a building was somehow the masterplan behind EVERYTHING in the city leading up to 2008. Well, common sense finally prevailed and that absolute bullshitting excuse for an architect was told where to shove it. Hopefully, this means that Will Alsop will never come near Liverpool with his "grand" schemes again (why the government puts so much faith and resources into Alsop's egocentric visions I'll never know).

gobshoite · January 27th, 2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin G

That's probably cos that pile of utter shite that was the fucking Alsop one (aka the cowpat) ran away with all the plaudits and was such a huge distraction by virtue of its irredeemable ugliness it diverted people's attention away from the other more worthy contenders - that's the way I look at it any rate.

I think that whole public consultation thing was a red herring. It was like a fella wanting a new suit trying on ones from the worlds best bespoke tailors before deciding on an off the peg from Burtons. Then at the last minute deciding he cant afford the HP.(crap analogy I know)

What was that telly programme years ago where the losing contestants were told at the end 'here's what you could have won'?

It's like that here but with a Norman Foster or a Brunswick Tower to replace the mini or the caravan

gobshoite · January 27th, 2006, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pobbie Rarr

Hence The Cloud.

I remember the huge feeling of relief by everyone around me when that steaming pile of horse shit was scrapped. Liverpool truly dodged the bullet: it's as though a Category Five hurricane was headed for the city and made an abrupt turn at the last minute. What's more, it was a kick in the teeth to that overblown, pretentious tosser Will Alsop, who as ever tried to play the starring role of visionary genius solely responsible for CoC2008. Then he cried like a big baby when it was scrapped, trying to put part of the blame on ordinary Liverpudlians like you and me i.e. don't know what's good for them. What he failed to realise of course is that the vast majority of us didn't want that visual abomination desecrating the lovely waterfront. Alsop is nothing but a pious, pompous charlatan who somehow believes it is his Divine Right to make everyone live in giant teddy bears and such. He tried to pretend that his ludicrously overblown shiny big haemorrhoid of a building was somehow the masterplan behind EVERYTHING in the city leading up to 2008. Well, common sense finally prevailed and that absolute bullshitting excuse for an architect was told where to shove it. Hopefully, this means that Will Alsop will never come near Liverpool with his "grand" schemes again (why the government puts so much faith and resources into Alsop's egocentric visions I'll never know).

So you did'nt like it then Pobbie?

***gothicform*** · January 27th, 2006, 05:12 PM

my experience of politicans is they believe any crap you tell them if you dress it up and make it look fancy. it seems its not what you say but how you say that matters most, the politican cares about how the message is conveyed, the style over the substance. if youre good at selling things you can get them to listen easily and tlak them around if they disagree. if they continue to disagree just pretend to be an expert and bombard them with all sorts of facts and figures they dont know about. the second they are out of their field they will put their trust in you as you are the expert advising them. "so what do you think we should do?" they ask.

Martin S · January 29th, 2006, 01:28 AM

The problem with the Fourth Grace was not that it was ugly or out of place. I don't think it was either and I spent a long time arguing for it.

The problem was that it was not deliverable and it is amazing that we got into the situation that a panel of 'experts' chose a development that could not be afforded.

I still hope that the Museum of Liverpool will go ahead. This is after all a project that is being driven by a real need - the need for additional display space in the Museum of Liverpool Life, especially the large objects.

However, if you look at the developments in this city that have gone ahead, they mainly are pushed by commercial interests who want to make money building shops, apartments or offices. These are the ones that are succeeding in being built while we go from failure to failure with the large publicly funded projects.

I think that is ironic. Back in the 80s, nobody wanted to invest in Liverpool and regeneration had to be led by the public sector with developments such as Albert Dock or the International Garden Festival. However, the message does not seem to have got through that this is now a city that the private sector is very interested in.

The whole point of the Garden Festival was to give the city a new profile that would attract people wanting to build things like Brunswick Quay and Central Station towers. Now that we have got them, they are seen as a menace threatening our world heritage city.

January 26th, 2006, 02:37 PM	#1
gobshoite Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: liverpool Posts: 204 Likes (Received): 0	Fourth Grace The lack of any real outrage from the general public to the lottery fund decision on the X building would suggest they were at best ambivalent to this project. ( I personaly liked it ) If this does not go ahead, what do you think of the idea of a water feature of immense proportions in its place? Something on the scale of the one in Geneva would be a great tourist attraction and would sit well alongside the plans for the liner berth/canal link. I believe this would be looked on favourably by the lottery board as it would provide the new attraction we missed out on during the millenium handouts. Not sure about the design but maybe a statue of of the leader of the heritage lobby pissing on the city would be appropriate!

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January 26th, 2006, 02:45 PM	#2
Tony Sebo BANNED Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Liverpool Posts: 18,306 Likes (Received): 4	I have always felt that since we are no longer proposing a scheme that is genuinely world class then it should be developed as open space, with the type of features you mention. There was a great project for a lunar tidal clock/massive art instalation initially proposed for the Left bank a few years ago that we suggested would be a good alternative when the Cloud was killed off. Something like that wold be great.

January 26th, 2006, 04:50 PM	#3
gobshoite Registered User Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: liverpool Posts: 204 Likes (Received): 0	Tony, I could'nt agree more. There seems to be a desperation to put something in that space as a face saving policy as opposed to anything based on architechtural merit or need. I actually think the museum is a brilliant idea and an area (with some great people in charge) in which we are for once ahead of the field. I would love to see this proceed but possibly on a less sensitive site. As regards the water feature idea, you can imagine how great it could be but our illustrious leaders would probably appoint Charlie Dimmock as the prefered designer. People may call me cynical but that's people for you!

January 26th, 2006, 09:08 PM	#5
richie1878 Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Liverpool Posts: 414 Likes (Received): 0	I'm still pissed off that the foster design never came to fruition. From the renders I have seen, it looked magnificent.

January 27th, 2006, 05:12 PM	#10
*gothicform* Bossman Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: not london Posts: 29,168 Likes (Received): 486	my experience of politicans is they believe any crap you tell them if you dress it up and make it look fancy. it seems its not what you say but how you say that matters most, the politican cares about how the message is conveyed, the style over the substance. if youre good at selling things you can get them to listen easily and tlak them around if they disagree. if they continue to disagree just pretend to be an expert and bombard them with all sorts of facts and figures they dont know about. the second they are out of their field they will put their trust in you as you are the expert advising them. "so what do you think we should do?" they ask.

January 29th, 2006, 01:28 AM	#11
Martin S LIVERPOOL England Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 6,520 Likes (Received): 44	The problem with the Fourth Grace was not that it was ugly or out of place. I don't think it was either and I spent a long time arguing for it. The problem was that it was not deliverable and it is amazing that we got into the situation that a panel of 'experts' chose a development that could not be afforded. I still hope that the Museum of Liverpool will go ahead. This is after all a project that is being driven by a real need - the need for additional display space in the Museum of Liverpool Life, especially the large objects. However, if you look at the developments in this city that have gone ahead, they mainly are pushed by commercial interests who want to make money building shops, apartments or offices. These are the ones that are succeeding in being built while we go from failure to failure with the large publicly funded projects. I think that is ironic. Back in the 80s, nobody wanted to invest in Liverpool and regeneration had to be led by the public sector with developments such as Albert Dock or the International Garden Festival. However, the message does not seem to have got through that this is now a city that the private sector is very interested in. The whole point of the Garden Festival was to give the city a new profile that would attract people wanting to build things like Brunswick Quay and Central Station towers. Now that we have got them, they are seen as a menace threatening our world heritage city.