Doncaster Sheffield International Airport (DSA)

[pug]

Valid point. If congestion is an issue already, how does making the train serve Doncaster twice help? (based on the train now serving XXX-DON-DSA-DON-XXX versus XXX-DON-XXX?

Exactly, not to mention the line he is refering to is the Doncaster-Lincoln line, which if what he is suggesting (that trains from Leeds, Sheffield, Hull were to terminate at DSA) is even more far fetched. Not to mention that Doncaster seems to be more a stop off on the ECML with people connecting than an end of the line O&D station.

The best that can be hoped for is a stop on the Lincoln-Doncaster service to serve the new houses and industrial buildings which will be going up in the coming years, even then there would need to be enough patronage for the train company to allow a stop at DSA into its timetables. Not to mention the distance to the line from the terminal building, which would mean a fairly lengthy walk with luggage.

[LNGCats]

Pfft.

Why have real issues that face people making these real decisions got to get in the way.

Our armchair expert clearly knows more about this than anyone running a train company or airport.

[world_rep]

I believe one of the main congestion areas is the section between Doncaster station and Rossington, on the ECML.

Therefore, adding trains to the line that would not have otherwise served that section will compound the issue.

For example, the Sheffield-Doncaster train would not have served this section of line, by using the spur to Sheffield just outside the station. If this train was extended to DSA, it would now have to wait to get into Doncaster, then 'reverse' up to DSA using the Lincoln line. It would then have to re-use the busy section of line to get back to Doncaster-> Sheffield, as there is no direct access to the Sheffield branch from DSA.

The only 'local' trains coming anywhere near the DSA/Lincoln spur are the Lincoln trains, as the only trains travelling south on the ECML after Doncaster are the Grand Central/Hull trains/East Coast trains to London.

[js1000]

Originally Posted by Leeds No.1

Erm, the train would still stop at Doncaster...



Yes, you. Perhaps jus remove Birmingham and East Midlands from the equation totally. The population on each side of the Pennines is still comparable.

What?!? I didn't bring East Midlands population into the equation, you did! I only included East Midlands airport as that is only a further away from DSA if you were in Sheffield, but not by much down the M1. Therefore, it is a major competitor which vies for passenger numbers from south Yorkshire. Same could be said for Manchester for west Yorkshire, but I left that out because it is on the other side of a the Pennines and a major international airport.

[Bladerunner]

Less of the sarcastic comments folks. Anyone is allowed to post on here. If you feel that their argument is invalid you should still be polite.

[Irish Blood English Heart]

Originally Posted by Bladerunner

Less of the sarcastic comments folks. Anyone is allowed to post on here. If you feel that their argument is invalid you should still be polite.

Agreed.

[Leeds No.1]

I suppose it's difficult for people outside the region to understand that the suggestion for a rail halt at DSA would not be to 'serve DSA', but relieve congestion at Doncaster. The same reason for building East Leeds Parkway- fewer terminating trains at City.

If fewer trains terminated at Doncaster, but at a new station near DSA, you could remove a bottleneck on the ECML while also having the benefit of rail links to DSA.

[pug]

Leeds No1, the argument is that not many services terminate at Doncaster. As World Rep has pointed out, the only trains using the ECML south of Doncaster are of those operators to London, and the vast majority, if not all of them are merely stopping at Doncaster on their way to Leeds, Hull, Newcastle, Scotland etc.

The only realistic rail connection for DSA would be a stop on the Doncaster-Lincoln line, but as I have already said, there would need to be enough demand to encourage the operator to allow for trains to stop there. The demand is highly unlikely to be there.

For the airport, connectivity is not the issue. The issue is that airlines have not committed to the airport, despite some showing their support in the early days before the airport opened. I would like to have thought that easyjet could have seen sufficient demand to put three aircraft into DSA after testing the water, but they didnt. Other airlines had already committed, or have committed to other airports since DSA has opened By rights if DSA was really going to be what it was proposed to have been, they would have gone there instead. Ryanair did it recently, they dropped Faro and Alicante and reduced Tenerife to 1xweekly because they know that passengers who would have used those flights will still travel to EMA to use their same flights from there.

Next years Thomson Holidays should start coming online in the next couple of weeks, it will be interesting to see what their plans are for DSA next year.

[Leeds No.1]

I'm referring to local services on the Wakefield Line, not East Coast.

[NewcastleOwl]

Just read the last few days worth of bickering on this thread. I have to agree with LNGCats et al that the future for DSA looks bleak.

I'm no expert on airport business strategy, but as a layman I can see that in the post cheap flights boom of the last 10-15 years, and in an increased environment of austerity, higher carbon taxes. etc., there's bound to be a serious rationalisation of airports as carriers fold and the remainder consolodate and concentrate on proven hubs. The situation is already over saturated in Yorks & Humber / NE / E Mids, so a good few local airports will have to close to passengers before too long.

I think that, east of the Pennines, DSA was originally actually one of the best placed to prepare for this incoming trend IF it could have attracted massive investment at the outset to build a complete link road from the M18 and subsidised rail service, because it has the long runway, there is so much 'spare' land around it and so few residences close to the flight path to be caused nuissance; it was ideal for organic growth / expansion for decades to come.

But that's all pie in the sky now as the chance for anything like that has gone; its not busy enough to attract new carriers, relies too much on budget getway flights and regional politicians wouldn't allow significant public investment to turn things around as they're all looking after their own local airport's interests and a lot of money has now gone into LBA and E Mids.

I could still see a future for DSA as a continuing local employer though as a freight airport. The attributes described above would serve its future freight prospects well, not to mention the Inland Port proposal next door and FARRRS. Indeed I thought a major part of their business plan at DSA was / is freight operations. Does anyone know how much freight is handled there currently and, if its none, why its none?


Whilst it's illogical to keep building airports in a saturated market, the current situation with SCA demolished and DSA looking doomed as a concept for inbound passengers, this does not serve the Sheff City Region well. I fly a fair bit with business and airports and their associated in-aircraft literature serve as a great advertisement platform for their region. Without its own airport the region is missing out not just on connectivety but also on much needed positive publicity to a targetted business audience.


One last minor point. To those who insist MAN is "easy to reach from Sheff" one thing to be aware of is how often the link gets severed in winter. If you're relying on car how often is the Snake Pass closed becasue of snow, or the Woodhead Pass? These single-carriageway A roads slow at the best of tiems and are not prioritised like the M62 (which far too north to be much use to Sheffielders) when it comes to gritting / ploughing and arguably get worse weather; there are no road alternatives. It may only be a few times a year, but it must be a bummer when you miss your plane because the snow's blocked your transpennine route! Make you think twice about using that airport again. E Mids is probably most convenient useful airport for Sheff.

[pug]

I'm referring to local services on the Wakefield Line, not East Coast.

How would a halt at DSA for the Wakefield service reduce a bottleneck on the ECML? DSA isnt even on the Wakefield line! Not only would they have to stop at Doncaster, but then go on to the Lincoln line for a bit. Surely creating even more disruption!??! Particularly as part of the Lincoln line south of Doncaster is on the ECML!

I think that, east of the Pennines, DSA was originally actually one of the best placed to prepare for this incoming trend IF it could have attracted massive investment at the outset to build a complete link road from the M18 and subsidised rail service, because it has the long runway, there is so much 'spare' land around it and so few residences close to the flight path to be caused nuissance; it was ideal for organic growth / expansion for decades to come.

I dont think that is quite true. I think had the airport opened at the back end of the 90's, then it may have been able to capitalise on low-cost like Liverpool did, before EMA and LBA realised the potential. Truth is, by the time Peel had been given the green light, Jet2 had started up at LBA, and MAG had taken control of EMA which itself had a large and developing low-cost network. DSA has a smaller core catchment area than has LBA and EMA, therefore the airlines tend to go to those instead. The long runway is irrelevent, long-haul is and always has been a non-starter. Even the Thomson long-haul flights were transfered to EMA after only one season. EMA's runway is exactly the same length as DSA's, with plans for an extension. Even at the current length I believe the take off distance available is a bit more than that of DSA's.

The attributes described above would serve its future freight prospects well, not to mention the Inland Port proposal next door and FARRRS. Indeed I thought a major part of their business plan at DSA was / is freight operations. Does anyone know how much freight is handled there currently and, if its none, why its none?

Because EMA has one of the largest freight operations of any UK airport, and is only down the road, better connected by being right next to the M1. DSA cannot really compete in that respect. A major part of their business plan was that 80% of their business would be attracted away from other airports. Seems an increadibly high risk to me!!

I'm not sure how having an Inland Port next door would boost airport freight movements? I would have thought it will be bulk cargo handled. If we were to follow that theory then Humberside would be handling much more freight than it currently is, being a stones throw from Hull, Grimsby, Immingham!

[Irish Blood English Heart]

It looks a very impressive airport from the air but it's got it's work cut out to not end up a total failure. We're not alone though, the Spanish spent £1bn building an airport between Madrid and Seville that has now shut due to lack of use.

If it was closer to Sheffield it would've had a chance maybe, it perhaps still does but it needs a drastic change of business model and I'm not sure what that is...

All in all I think it's reasonable to say Sheffield was better served before with it's small city airport, at least it had the potential for business travel and links to hubs.

[js1000]

Originally Posted by NewcastleOwl

Just read the last few days worth of bickering on this thread. I have to agree with LNGCats et al that the future for DSA looks bleak.

I'm no expert on airport business strategy, but as a layman I can see that in the post cheap flights boom of the last 10-15 years, and in an increased environment of austerity, higher carbon taxes. etc., there's bound to be a serious rationalisation of airports as carriers fold and the remainder consolodate and concentrate on proven hubs. The situation is already over saturated in Yorks & Humber / NE / E Mids, so a good few local airports will have to close to passengers before too long.

I think that, east of the Pennines, DSA was originally actually one of the best placed to prepare for this incoming trend IF it could have attracted massive investment at the outset to build a complete link road from the M18 and subsidised rail service, because it has the long runway, there is so much 'spare' land around it and so few residences close to the flight path to be caused nuissance; it was ideal for organic growth / expansion for decades to come.

But that's all pie in the sky now as the chance for anything like that has gone; its not busy enough to attract new carriers, relies too much on budget getway flights and regional politicians wouldn't allow significant public investment to turn things around as they're all looking after their own local airport's interests and a lot of money has now gone into LBA and E Mids.

I could still see a future for DSA as a continuing local employer though as a freight airport. The attributes described above would serve its future freight prospects well, not to mention the Inland Port proposal next door and FARRRS. Indeed I thought a major part of their business plan at DSA was / is freight operations. Does anyone know how much freight is handled there currently and, if its none, why its none?


Whilst it's illogical to keep building airports in a saturated market, the current situation with SCA demolished and DSA looking doomed as a concept for inbound passengers, this does not serve the Sheff City Region well. I fly a fair bit with business and airports and their associated in-aircraft literature serve as a great advertisement platform for their region. Without its own airport the region is missing out not just on connectivety but also on much needed positive publicity to a targetted business audience.


One last minor point. To those who insist MAN is "easy to reach from Sheff" one thing to be aware of is how often the link gets severed in winter. If you're relying on car how often is the Snake Pass closed becasue of snow, or the Woodhead Pass? These single-carriageway A roads slow at the best of tiems and are not prioritised like the M62 (which far too north to be much use to Sheffielders) when it comes to gritting / ploughing and arguably get worse weather; there are no road alternatives. It may only be a few times a year, but it must be a bummer when you miss your plane because the snow's blocked your transpennine route! Make you think twice about using that airport again. E Mids is probably most convenient useful airport for Sheff.

I agree with the sentiments. Transpennine route between Manchester and Sheffield is tricky. I understand building a motorway in the Pennines/Peak District is awkward and expensive, but I've always considered it a joke how two of England's biggest cities 30 miles from each are connected by two tricky and congested A roads. Any how, that's another issue and luckily most people travel during the summer months when there is minimal snow over the tops from April to October generally. Not sure about possibility as a freight airport with competition north, west and south of Sheffield. East Midlands Airport the major cargo airport outside London just down the road and Hull is good enough for cargo.

[muddycoffee]

Latest provisional pax data is out.

[jt132]

Link road approved, construction could start August

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-18407632

[lewisskinner]

Originally Posted by jt132

Link road approved, construction could start August

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-18407632

Also reported in the Star, subject to "minor details regarding flood prevention".

[muddycoffee]

I'm sure this was confirmed for definite several months ago, but this update just confirms the timescale, thanks for sharing the news.

[Fozberg]

Im yet to be convinced this new road will have any impact on DSA, other that opening up the employment and housing sites next door.

[pug]

Im yet to be convinced this new road will have any impact on DSA

Chances are it wont. What the airport really needs to do if it wants to get on and 'meet the goals set in the masterplan' is attract airline operations away from other airports, wait until there is another boom in the aviation industry (if there ever is another one, which is debatable), or perhaps attract easyjet back with a significant investment from them, as they currently dont operate from anywhere on the M1/A1 corridor between Luton/Stansted and Newcastle (except for a seasonal flight to Geneva from Leeds)! The flights would have to be better supported in such a scenario than last time they attempted an operation from DSA, and I wonder if their previous experience would deter them from returning in the future?

What it most likely will do, as you say, is open up employment sites and make it easier to push ahead with lucrative housing development in the area. Potentially good news for the region in that sense, due to the number of jobs that will be created.

[TakeMeHigher]

As you say, the road won't make a blind bit of real difference to the failing airport, but it will dramatically improve the development prospects of the land that came with the airport, and ultimately the likelihood of the airport finally closing in favour of redevelopment

People want aeroplanes that go places they want to go to. If they cared about the roads that go to the airport millions of people wouldn't travel from the region to Manchester, East Midlands, Liverpool, Birmingham,Luton, Stansted, Heathrow and Gatwick to catch a flight.